Rooster_Ties

Is there really any one Bruckner symphony that is considerably better liked than all or most of the others? Which one is his Beethoven's 5th (or 9th, or 7th, or 3rd)?? Which one is his Dvorak's 9th (or 7th)?? It may be that since none of them really grabbed hold of me - I've never spent enough time with any one of them, enough to really get it in my ears.

I've never been able to completely wrap my ears around his symphonies -- try as I might over the years. To me, at least, they're all incredibly long and sprawling (and boring) -- and their impact on me is much the same as Mahler very early on (when I was in my 20's), before my "Mahler" light bulb went on (and I suddenly 'got it' - the trigger was singing/performing in the chorus of Mahler 8 - and suddenly all Mahler made sense). Which is to say that no similar Bruckner light bulb has ever gone on for me. BUT -- he has a String Quintet (standard quartet plus a second viola, as I recall), which I adore! -- and his choral motets are divine too (both to sing, and to listen to). Seem to recall a bit of other chamber music of his over the years that floated my boat considerably more than his orchestral efforts – which all leave me cold.

There's a little Monk-ish-ness to his playing (for lack of a better comparison), though really more in how he plays - than in the construction of his tunes. I also think there's some comparison with Shorter albums like "All Seeing Eye" - but agree not so much with all of Wayne's BN output.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to how many albums/recordings he was on over the years? I'll take a really wild guess and say 250 or perhaps 300? (both totally wild guesses), but would love to know. OK, these two obits seem to think it's around 100 -- but that seems really low to me -- surely it's at least 150. Anyone beg to differ? http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/08/19/rip-cedar-walton and http://www.jazzwisemagazine.com/news-mainmenu-139/70-2013/12817-jazz-breaking-news-cedar-walton-1934-2013

Same song? Other than the need for a new singer, how is this the same?

I'm always amazed that spell-checks don't know that "Herbie" is a real word (name) that isn't misspelled.

Let ME be the first to say there can never be too many Andrew Hill threads!

Fascinating that Naxos and Verve are teaming up on something like this.

Really?? From that thread... So it looks to me like www.bluenoteeurope.com now just resolves to bluenote.com -- where I'm certainly not finding any BB functionality. So, then, are we the last man standing??

Amen. Rott's lone symphony is pure, 'primordial' Mahler.

Time to get with the future!!

Just Googling around (my search items: "legend" "wayne shorter" 1967), and now just what the heck is THIS about??!!! Note: you gotta put quotes around "legend" or else Google will match on other forms of the word, like legendary (and legends), perhaps others. Link: SOURCE, full article at link to the left, and the full relevant quote follows: Article Headline: Wayne Shorter: 'Happening,' and Meandering, a Burst at a Time NYT, Dec. 24th, 2004 Ben Ratliff Subhead: Exploring the World Coltrane wanted that, too, Mr. Shorter said, and recalled a conversation he had had with Coltrane's son Ravi: "Ravi told me that he wanted me to write something for him, for orchestra. Trane was still alive when I was with Miles, and we performed something at Monterey, a piece for 28 pieces called 'Legend.' It would have been natural for Trane to hear about that - he was always following what Miles was doing." Lately, Mr. Shorter has been looking at semi-retirement, which means less time spent on the road and more time thinking about composing music that will include only a little of his playing - "not all over the place, just where it counts." He has thought about revisiting "Legend" - Davis's nephew has found a tape of the concert - as well as a number of other orchestral projects. One is "Aurora Leigh," a composition he started when he was 18 and at N.Y.U. It is named after an Elizabeth Barrett Browning poem. He said he might take it to David Robertson, principal conductor of the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra, who wants to work with him. More recently he has begun writing original music for the soprano Renée Fleming. "When I listen to music, I'm not thinking about the workshop aspect of it," he said. " 'Oh, that sound goes good against that one.' Boring. But, you know Elgar, who wrote something about people that he knew, characters he knew? And each theme was antiphonal? You say, 'Describe this person in music,' and he'd do it, whether the person was rotund or skinny." (Mr. Shorter was describing the "Enigma Variations.") "I need to find out more about other people's cultures, with the time I have left," Mr. Shorter said, jumping over a conversational hedgerow. "Because when I'm writing something that sounds like my music - well, not my music, I don't possess music - but when they say, 'Wayne Shorter's playing those snake lines,' I should take that willingness to do that, that desire I have to do that, and extend it to the desire to find out more about what is not easy to follow, what is difficult to follow in someone else's life." ============ Miles' nephew found a tape of the concert?? - implying that it included Miles?? Is THIS (above) perhaps what you were thinking of, Bertrand?? And to which we all collectively say, WTF? - there's no mention of Miles in the Downbeat review. Which is it? And Monterery isn't anywhere the same as UCLA, is it? (I'm totally California ignorant - and don't have time to check at the moment.) There could still be something else about Legend in an early '67 Downbeat somewhere -- I was only looking at the concert reviews columns -- so if there was an "upcoming events" column, I wouldn't have seen it (even in the issues I looked through).

The actual quote pertaining to Legend *does* (practically) mention various themes of Miles Davis. Well, maybe not exeactly the same meaning (does "themes" = "homage to"? ), but pretty darn close, depending on how deep into semantics you want to get. FWIW, the exact quote from the review reads... "The least successful band effort was not [Gary] McFarland's [festival band]; it was Wayne Shorter's homage to Miles Davis, Legend, a moody, colorless composition built on descending figures with a bass lead, in a minor mode. A middle section in 3/4, powered by [Grady] Tate [on drums], showed some excitement, but in the main, the work sounded like an introduction."

Time to fess up -- who else saw the thread title, and thought about something along the lines of David "Fatberg" Newman?

I'm sure I can e-mail you .pdf scans of the whole thing (maybe this week yet), whether or not I can upload them here.

According to the Downbeat review (13-JUL-67), the line-up of the "festival band" was as follows below -- but please note, the ONLY player who is mentioned by name as having played on the Legend -- was Grady Tate. In fact, Wayne(!) isn't even mentioned as having played on the piece (the ENTIRE quote pertaining to Legend is reproduced above and, again, Tate is the ONLY musician mentioned by name, as a player (Wayne is only mentioned as the composer). That said, the 'festival band' (which played in its own right, and the personnel was listed in regards to the festival band's separate(?) performance -- which was mostly (all?) McFarland tunes, all of which were named) was listed as being... Gary McFarland (leader - and presumably vibes, though vibes weren't mentioned) Clark Terry, Bobby Bryant, Buddy Childers, Freddie Hill - trumpets Bob Brookmeyer, Lou Blackburn - trombones Jim McGee, Art Briegleb - French Horns Howard Johnson - tuba Bob Cooper, Bill Green, Zoot Sims, Jack Nimitz, Jay Migliore - "reeds" Gabor Szabo, Jim Stewart - guitars Ray Brown - bass Grady Tate - drums Hal Gordon - percussion. That said, I have a pretty strong hunch that the group that played Legend came out of a subset of this 'festival band' (and may have included many, if not most of these players). The reviewer named was Harvey Siders. I'll try and scan and upload the whole thing when I can.

The entire line-up of the festival band is listed elsewhere in the review (which included Tate), so I have a strong hunch that others in the 'festival' group played Legend too. I'll supply the full list tonight, and the reviewer is named as well. (I actually typed up a MUCH longer accounting of the Downbeat article -- only to have it not post to the board, and it was unforunately lost in the bit-bucket). Miles is mentioned elsewhere in the review of the same (multi-day?) event -- in a review of the full (second) quintet -- which strongly implies that Miles DID NOT play on Legend. The ONLY info directly pertaining to the Shorter/Legend thing is what I typed up above (in bold). I'll try to get some more typed up this evening.

Just found the mention of Legend in Downbeat, in the July 13, 1967 issue -- and the piece is specifically mentioned by name. Here's the full quote... "The least successful band effort was not [Gary] McFarland's [festival band]; it was Wayne Shorter's homage to Miles Davis, Legend, a moody, colorless composition built on descending figures with a bass lead, in a minor mode. A middle section in 3/4, powered by [Grady] Tate [on drums], showed some excitement, but in the main, the work sounded like an introduction." I also just 'discovered' that my uncle's Downbeat collection (which I have here with me now in DC), goes all the way back to April of 1965 (not '67 as I'd previously thought) -- a good 20+ years, seemingly complete. I'll try and post a scan of the complete review of the Los Angeles Jazz Festival (Pauley Pavilion, UCLA) -- which is fairly long, and filled with quite bit of performance details (which isn't to say that it's 100% confirmed that the review wasn't "pre-written" -- but it sure looks like a legit review to me).

Had a hunch that one of the two members of Sam's rhythm section might have been the catalyst for the big band -- since they were part of his regular trio too.

Never really dug the two-disc New York all-star Big Band recordings as much as I wanted too (the ones Steve Coleman had the biggest hand in, iirc) -- but damn,if Aurora didn't knock me on my ass from the git-go, and the Mosaic too. That Florida bag band was and (I presume) could still be amazing!! I know there isn't a penny to be had in it -- and probably money to lose (frankly) -- but on musical grounds, I'd love for Sam's legacy to continue with a group that (presumably) could represent him so well, in an on-going - or at least periodic basis. And the thing is, I think that band really had something unique to say (which is to say that Sam really molded that band -- of 30+ people -- into something unique -- which must speak volumes about Sam's influence). Maybe it was the rhythm-section that was the most unique factor (well, in that particular kind of context) -- but whatever it was, it was special, and nothing like I've ever heard before or since. Anybody know if there was a defacto "music director" in the group? Given Sam's age, somebody had to have been calling the rehearsals -- or at least handling the musical logistics. I know Sam's daughter was (essentially) his manager, and may have been doing somet of that -- but I'd have to think there was somebody actually in the band who kind of ran stuff, or at least was a really big influence. I know Andrew Hill had the benefit of one or two musicians (Ron Horton (tp), being one) who really helped get his stuff going in his later years, i.e. did charts for Andrew (that actually made sense), etc. Did Sam have anybody like that? For a guy in his 80's, one would have to assume he wasn't doing it all - especially with the volume of new music I understand the group did over the years (or so I've heard) -- not that Sam wasn't writing everything, but even Duke had Billy. None of that (about Sam's last years in Florida) will probably ever get documented (nor Andrew's last decade) -- but my hat's off to whomever helped get Sam's Florida big band going, and helped keep it going for quite a number of years. Talk about a labor of love!

Yes, they are wonderful, though I give the slight edge to the second one, "Trio '81". I got the last copy of that from Dusty Groove, years ago. The two of them, plus Ron Carter's "Third Plane" is the complete output of that group as a trio, correct? Not aware of any others (trio-dates only) under Herbie's or Ron's name, nor any under Tony's (correct?)

While I've definitely enjoyed a number of their releases apart, both before and since -- ain't nothin' better (by either one solo) than Greg Osby and Jason Moran together -- and I dearly hope they work together again someday (and hope to have the chance to suggest that to them, presumably individually, any/every chance I get -- until the day it happens -- and hopefully gets recorded). Your thoughts on other jazz artists who you enjoy a lot better together, than apart?

Even OOP, it's defininitely worth tracking down - even at twice the original Mosaic price (probably the going rate). The bonus material is every bit as good, and substantial inclusion. The live "Music Inc" quartet album "Impact" on enja (and especially it's recent CD reissue with two long bonus tracks, for a total of 25 minutes of extra material) is also just as important -- especially since it includes a version of "Brilliant Circles" - a tune otherwise only available on the Stanley Cowell album of the same name (with Woody Shaw). Never dreamed I'd get to hear a version of that tune with Charles Tolliver. (Not to be confused with the Strata East big band album "Impact" -- the one on enja is completely different.) When you include the quartet's "Grand Max" from around that same time -- it's really amazing that there's over 5 hours (5!) of liver material by the various incarnations of the Music Inc quartet -- all from the early 70's -- floating around.

Anybody know if Sam's big band ever played (or continues?) without him? - presumably in the Orlando area. The group had a huge (30+), revolving-door of musicians from all over the greater Orlando area (and beyond) -- and audience demand (or lack thereof) not withstanding -- I could easily see the group continuing without him, as a sort of 'ghost band' without Sam. I only know them from the recent 3-disc Sam Rivers Mosaic Select, and the equally brilliant (earlier) release Aurora. And while I doubt there's anything much more than gas money to be had from doing it -- creatively speaking, this seems like a band ripe to continue the Sam Rivers legacy -- and provide an excellent outlet for some wonderful, creative musicians with some real chops and energy to offer. ========== Shame there aren't subtopics available on this new board/forum software -- or I'd try label this one as such, and get some parallel discussion going about ideas for OTHER modern day ghost bands that would actually make some reasonable sense, creatively speaking. While I'm sure there aren't lots that fit the bill (scarcely a dozen, at best -- heck even 2 or 3 seem like a lot) -- but I'd be currious if anyone here knew of any such modern day Ghost Band concepts that made as much sense (at least to me) as my idea for the RivBea Orchestra continuing without Sam. (Even one or two good examples would further the discussion.) I understand that Sam's big band was a serious creative outlet for a number of great musicians who otherwise had little chance to play that kind of challenging material anywhere else within 500 (or even 1,000 miles) -- and certainly not in anything like that kind of format (what I've always liked to describe as big band music written by Arnold Schoenberg, fronted by James Brown's rhythm section). A labor of love, to be sure -- but isn't anything akin to "regional, avant garde big band" going to be like that? (I'm reminded of the People's Liberation Big Band of Kansas City, for instance (those of you from KC know!) - where I'm guessing every player is lucky to get $10 for their troubles, and their real "pay" is the opportunity to play that kind of music for one night every month).

This is exactly the kind of box set I'd love to borrow from someone for about a year -- spin everything two of three times -- and then figure out which 15 (of the 35 dates) I really need. So If money were no object (and shelf-space no concern) -- I'd love to have this -- but realisticaly, I'm sure most of it would sit on the shelf, unlistened to for years on end. In fact, the 15 dates I really NEED from this set might even get listened to a little LESS for being 'lost' in amongst the total of 35 -- especially if the packaging makes it even the slightest bit of a pain to find particular albums on a whim. I'm really better off only owning the 15 dates I really need. That said, I can vouch for the two Japanese only trio dates with Ron and Tony -- both of which are wonderful (and I'm happy I sprung for the import versions of on CD).