Rooster_Ties

An official download would be great to at least make it possible for people to hear this thing. But, honestly, I'd be pretty disappointed if 'download' was the only option available (easier, though that may be - technically - and in terms of the expense of the release.) Maybe that's because I just don't download music much (practically not at all) -- and I either want to own something (i.e. physical media, preferably CD), or I almost don't really feel like it's worth having otherwise (electronically). At least for "legit" material that's actually been released, officially. If we ever get to the point where the majority of music released is download only, I'll be pretty bummed. I'm sure that day is coming, but I still won't ever be happy about it. EDIT: And I can't even begin to wrap my head around a 45 RPM isssue of something like this (but then I'm not audiophile either, so the whole 45 RPM issue of albums is perplexing to me to begin with).

An LP *wouldn't* interest me personally -- but whatever gets the job done, I'd be all for it! What I would insist on is that he entire session be issued on CD -- but that's at least 18 minutes more music than would comfortably fit on one LP. IIRC, the whole thing clocks in at 68 minutes.

Also, about the topic of how to structure such a Kickstarter with primo perks for big donors. Hell, I haven't a clue what anyone could offer in a case like this -- the reissue of an unreleased session by an obscure artist. If Mosaic were involved, perhaps (and I think there's only the slimmest of slim chances that this would even be possible -- so, no I'm not getting my hopes up in the slightest) -- but maybe a tour of the Blue Note vaults (and yes, I know, Mosiac ISN'T Blue Note -- but perhaps they have the connections to make something like that happen -- or at least MC did 25+ years ago). That wouldn't be a priority for me to experience personally, but I'm sure there are those for whom that would be nice enough to pry loose some cash. But other than something like that, one would have to assume that almost any reissue label willing to take this on would have next to no chance of being able to offer anything even remotely as tempting as something like that. That said, if I gave $500 to the project -- I'd sure has heck want 20 copies of the actual CD for my troubles (to give to people over the next several years), and a nicely framed copy of the resulting cover art -- LP size too, please. So maybe you structure the Kickstarter so bigger donors get multiple copies of the CD when it finally becomes available -- not at any great discount on the price per CD (probably no discount, and heck, even a premium price of $25 per CD) -- but if this ever did actually come out, you can be darn sure I'd want to share it with a lot of people, and I'd be kinda annoyed if -- on top of a huge donation -- I'd also have to buy copies (just like everyone else) for the 20 or 30 people I'm sure I'd want to lay copies on over the next 20 years. (So, yeah, I'd sure like a box of these just lying around, for whenever the urge to share one presented itself). EDIT: Maybe copies of the CD (@ $25 each) equal to however much you donate, plus a framed poster-size (LP-size) version of the cover for donors over $300 -- maybe that takes too much out of the cost/profit proposition for the reissue label. So maybe at $35 or $40 per CD each (so a $400 donor would get 10 copies of the CD), plus the framed poster/LP-sized cover. I'm not trying to be "greedy" with what the benefits are for bigger donors -- I'm just trying to get the conversation going. Whatever makes the most sense, towards actually working - obviously is the right answer. And, yes, cart before horse, guilty as charged, I know, I know.

Another crazy idea to toss on the table. A classical organization of some sort (don't really know much about them), recently licensed and reissued the complete works of Carl Ruggles (1980 CBS Masterworks LP) on CD -- originally a 2-LP set that I never dreamed would ever see the light of day on CD. I'm sure this isn't a direct parallel (to put it mildly), and that reissuing something from CBS (that had already come out on LP some 30 years ago) is a totally different animal that trying to do a first-ever issue of a previously unreleased session. But I mention it to suggest that odd, one-off projects can sometimes happen with material owned by something as large as whomever (CBS?) owned those Carl Ruggles masters. And how many of us ever expected to see such a greatly expanded reissue of Heiner Stadler's Brains on Fire. I thought that was weird as hell (weird, but wonderful! - but still weird).

That's why I would push to have some reissue label start/do/manage/run a Kickstarter campaign for this effort. We'd obviously have to have discussions in advance about what it would take to make it worth their while. Then they would have to talk to the right people at Universal (or whomever it is that holds the rights to the unreleased BN session), and the reissue lable would have to provisionally work out the necessary details with Universal (pending funding, of course). The Kickstarter would have to be set up such that the legal stuff related to the release was all ready to go, pending the full funding goal being met. I do realize there is absolutely NO way to pre-fund this (via Kickstarter), prior to all the dominos having been set up in advance, where the Kickstarter (and the associated funds) being the catalyst for the dominos falling. I'm sure I don't have every detail figured out, and that there are aspects of this I haven't thought of. But the idea is to entice a reissue label (or Mosaic), or whomever has the wherewithal to make it actually happen -- to entice said entity to actually do the deed, if and only if $10K can be raised within the 2 month window (or however it's structured). I just don't see getting enough people to sign a petition for this (via Facebook, or whatever) to ever make it work -- and not by a longshot. I think the only way is money on the table. A lot fewer people could chip in, but still make it actually work (with the right sort of $$$). My "vote" of $500, or $800 through a Kickstarter would matter 25x or nearly 40x more than if I (as just an individual) voted once on a petition -- which I figures is worth about $20 per vote. (And even then, it's not a binding transaction -- so you'd have to figure half the votes wouldn't matter -- or, rather, you'd have to get twice as many votes (or maybe even more!) to really get anyone's attention).

I totally realize actually doing a Kickstarter first would be putting the cart before the horse. I was thinking the only way to get the unrleased BN session out, is to suggest a 'cart' (i.e. a Kickstarter campaign with a specific goal, or some other sort of "Moneyed Petition") to the 'horse' (i.e. to a reissue label willing to do what's necessary to get it released, including the licensing). They would have a hand in developing the Kickstarter campaign - or maybe actually be the one who runs it (actually, I'd really prefer that -- I'd really prefer not to be the one to actually have to run it). Then I/we promote the hell out of it, get it funded -- and then whomever can actually get it released, gets the funding from the Kickstarter. I know we can put the cart before the horse, but there ain't no horse gonna pull this cart -- if we don't have a demonstrated cart that can be proven to exist (and not just a facebook page or other petition, but rather "actual money" on the line). Money talks. A petition ain't gonna cut it, I'm afraid.

There's a LOT of crazy, reissues of smaller-label 70's stuff from Japan. Dusty Groove seems to carry things right and left. And Roots seems like the prefect candidate. Hell, even Do Right! got reissued on CD -- how crazy is that!!?? Thing is, Roots is 10x the album that Do Right! is. There's even been an LP reissue of Roots (which I have). No idea if it was legit though (I'm guessing not?).

And what about Roots? One or two individual tracks have appeared on various Perception various-artists comps (more than one comp, in fact). And it wouldn't be the very first Perception date reissued on CD. I know there's Larry Young's Lawrence of Newark - which has been on CD - and have there been any others? FWIW, THIS appears to be everything released on Perception back in the day -- have there been any other CD reissues besides the Larry Young? - and if so, have they all come from the same reissue label?

You may be right -- but as much as I'm glad to (finally) see all the 70's BN releases finally on CD -- I'm kind of surprised we've never seen Larry Young's Contrasts (also with Tyrone Washiongton), or Sam Rivers' A New Conception on CD yet as individual releases -- not here, nor anywhere on the planet. You'd think if anyone was going to ever release them, it would have been the Japanese -- and before (I would think) reissuing LT-series titles with their original covers. (Who among us ever saw THAT happening?? ) So what would be the best approach to contacting Universal Japan? Who's on the inside there? someone close to the actual process of what the Japanese have been reissuing from BN in the last couple years. Not a bean-counter, but someone closer to the music-side of things.

I'd probably drink more often, but I've never developed any liking for the taste of beer (of any sort). I drank in college (who didn't), and a lot more for two years when I bartended shortly after my senior year of college. Also, when I first moved to Kansas City for the first couple years -- hanging out in a couple jazz bars (especially with pool tables! - the Drum Room). But then I met my future wife, and we were both "old fogies in training" even back then (when we were both in our late 20's). And, as it turned out, being an "old fogie" in training - was good training for being on a jazz forum too!

FWIW, much as I like and appreciate all the Tyrone on the newly expanded Heiner Stadler: Brains on Fire --- IMHO, Tyrone's playing (and the group interplay especially) on the unreleased Blue Note session is consistently better, and a lot more interesting (especially the tunes, as compositions and also as vehicles for soloing). Also, the slow, free ballad on the unreleased session is way better than the slow, free ballad on Natural Essence. With complete, full-length alternate takes of fully 4 of the 5 tunes -- one can hear how "together" the session really was -- most with lengthy, complex heads -- that are all well-rehearsed, with well-thought-out solos by both Tyrone and Herbie on every take. I think most of the date is no more 'out' than any of Larry Young's last four Blue Note leader-dates, nor any of the earlier half of Andrew Hill's BN output. The only exception is the most free of the two 'free' tunes -- i.e. the one with the 15-seconds of vocalizations on one of the takes. I would describe two of the tunes as being really free -- one fast and busy, and the other one slow and moody. I often think this one tune (the fast, free one), and especially the one take of it with the short burst of 'vocals' -- as probably being 75% of the reason the session was rejected. Otherwise, how this date hasn't seen the light of day confounds me every time I hear it. Overall, I'd rank this session as being in my own personal top-20 Blue Note dates list, without a doubt. Right up there (in my book) with most of Andrew HIll's output, Mothership, Complete Communion, Fuchsia Swing Song, the Jackie McLean dates with Charles Tolliver or Grachan Moncur, or Evolution and Some Other Stuff -- you name it. A desert-island disc kind of session, for me, to be sure. Would $8K or $10K get somebody's attention? Hard to imagine raising more than that. Or is this a totally lost cause, and subject to the whims and arbitrary decisions (and personal tastes) of people not at all moved by money (at least at this level). I.e., sure, $50K would get somebody's attention really fast -- but I know that ain't happening.

My wife and I both drink about once or twice per month. Occasionally 3 times -- but there are times we'll each go two or three months without a drink. We each had a glass Riesling with dinner the other night -- and we each had a hard cider w/ a 2 or 3 weeks before that. Couldn't tell you the time before.

My original post (now edited) originally said "how much $$$ do we need to raise, to say whatever needs to be said"... And I kind of meant it that way -- as in, I know 'money talks', so how much would it take? - and to whom can we hand said pile of money, to actually get either of these things to happen? (Both the unreleased BN session, but also getting Roots on CD too.) I don't know that what I'm about to suggest is the way to go >>> but would MC himself respond to a sort of "moneyed petition" about the BN date, and if so, how much money would grease the wheels? At one time he was a (the?) gate-keeper, so I presume he's still at least close enough to the process to have some influence. And to those saying this is "all about us" -- hey, I've already got mine, and in perfectly decent enough sound quality for my ears. So this really ISN'T about me. It's about sharing an important album with those that would care to hear it. And this thing really does need to be heard. Frankly, I think it's better (and better rehearsed) than either disc #3 of the Andrew Hill BN Select (which I love), or even Larry Young's Contrasts - which could have definitely benefitted from another rehearsal. Definitely not the roughest thing ever released on Blue Note, that's for sure (not by a mile).

How much was your Big John Patton Kickstarter, Jim? Surely it could be done for a much as that, no? Surly not a whole lot more. Being an archival release, and all.

There never could be enough to paint a truly accurate picture.

Are the dark, retirement years of Miles the vision of him we want the masses to see on the big screen? I mean, sure *I* could do with six (6!) full-length, realy well-done Miles bio-pics, one for each era represented by each metal-spine Columbia box -- with an early Bird & Miles bonus feature, and maybe this "Retirement Miles" thing as a "bonus, bonus" thing. Heck, make it a 10-part mini-series on PBS - 90 minutes an episode. But seriously, is THIS the era of Miles Davis that the jazz masses are yearning to see on the big screen??

Took a shower, and edited things a bit to tone things down (slightly). Seriously though -- is there any hope on either front? -- to get the unreleased BN date, or "Roots" on CD legit someday?

Don't know that he's the last word, but figure he maybe got the biggest sway (or near veto power). That, or else we would have heard it by now.

If you haven't guessed, yes, I've had this thing for years -- and I kept quiet about it too (save a time or two very briefly, only saying something here for the first time a couple years ago). Has it been 6 years? Maybe 5, I've lost track. That's an awfully long time to sit on something like this, and not discuss (and get more people listening to it) -- ESPECIALLY something I'd been salivating about for a good 10 years before I actually got to hear it. And I didn't just get to hear it -- I got to live with it. The first 2 months I had it, I don't think it left my car stereo. I'm sure I listened to it 100 times within the first 18 months. Yeah, now I can go 6 months without spinning it, but I've REALLY listened to this thing -- probably more than any other person on the planet (no kidding!!) -- and a "Trainwreck" it is NOT!! I'm convinced, now, that this is Tyrone's single greatest recorded document. And I think Herbie and Jack D. bring it too (Herbie's playing is a LOT like he brought to All Seeing Eye). And no matter what somebody said to me privately at one point (about Herbie Lewis and Jack not quite getting in sync on this date) -- I don't think there's a darn thing wrong with Herbie Lewis' contribution either (or how they play together). And, hey, while we're at it -- can we get Tyrone's "Roots" on CD?? I'd personally kick in $100 or maybe even $200 on a Kickstarter for that too. How "Do Right" is on CD, and not "Roots"...

I can't help but wonder if there's SOME way to help crowd-fund this into some sort of actual, public existence -- so it at least can be discussed. I'm sure I probably don't want to try and licence the recording myself, and actually have to do the legwork to actually get it released -- but I would more than happily turn over every penny of the Kickstarter funds to MC (or whomever), to do whatever needs doing. How much might be needed? $3,000? Can't be more than $5K or $6K, I wouldn't think (to issue already-recorded material). It's 68 minutes of heaven (and full-length, great alternate takes of the first four(!) of the five tunes!) -- and it's kind of a crime that nobody's ever heard it (save maybe a couple dozen people, at most probably). Some days I think I might personally kick in $500 for such a project. Why the heck not? - it's such a GREAT session (IMHO). Been thinking about this for a couple years, actually - but I wouldn't even begin to know how to approach the right people about it -- which, I suppose, would primarily be MC? Is Water still active? - could/would they have any interest in releasing it? Dusty Groove has their own sort of label/imprint, don't they? - surely THEY (of all people!!) could write the right sort of hype necessary to make copies fly off the shelves!! (OK, maybe not 'fly' - but they do have a way with words.) The Japanese??? - whomever is putting out the new, expanded Out To Lunch and that other expanded BN Shorter title (maybe not the same Japanese outfit, but they're both Japanese, right?). There's three or four options to consider -- are there more? Yeah, yeah -- I know -- all probably moot if MC thinks not (assuming he's one of the gatekeepers). Thoughts??? BTW, here's what we're talkin' about, for those not in the know...

I do plan to get this in 2014 -- but am I imagining that it could have been compressed into 1 or even 2 fewer discs? Not sure I'm complaining -- as ultimately one of the very few things I *dislike* about Mosaic sets is (some) albums/sessions being spread across multiple discs -- but that thought did occur to me looking over the discography. I'm sure my wallet will hate the extra expense, but ultimtely I won't care about that aspect (after the bill's done been paid), and will probably be greatful for it ever thereafter.

I heard a really great modern classical bass clarinetist a good 10+ years ago who replicated Dolphy's sound amazingly, though I think he played through-composed solos (and what I heard was his tribute to Dolphy, on solo bass clarinet). Dutch, iirc, and his name was Harry Sparnaay. Really fantastic, for what it was -- though it certainly wasn't anything beyond what is was -- i.e. "jazz" it was not. Dolphy's version of "Softly as a Summer Sunrise" EDIT: it was Dolphy's version of "God Bless the Child" that I heard -- may have been is what I heard Sparnaay play, though it's been a good 10-12 years. Heard it as an encore on a modern classical concert, that Sparnaay was the headliner of.

Happy birthday, from Joel and the cats!!!! ;-)

Got mine Friday, and love it!! What a really fantastic tribute to Big John. Can't wait to give it a few more focused spins this week. Side note: I'd love it if we crowd-source a similar Larry Young tribute disk -- I'd kick a whole bunch, for sure!!

I remembered right, at least that it was the Cherry BN - but I was off by a couple months as to when I'd bought it. I've since sold my Cherry set, and couldn't look up the receipt (which I think I'd included with the set when I sold it). Didn't post the info here in this thread again, but was pretty sure the McLean and Hill BN sets were my #2 and #3 in that order (and I was right!).