Rooster_Ties

FYI, all of Tolliver's "Strata East/Charly" CD's are currently only $12 a pop at Dusty Groove. If that ain't cheap, then I don't know what is!!! Do a search on "Tolliver", and you'll also find a number of titles they normally stock, but happen to be 'out-of-stock' on at the moment. And, you can easily sign-up to get an e-mail from them when they get stock back in on them. They also normally have his Black Lion titles for $7 each. Dusty Groove - the source for all your Charles Tolliver needs!! Here's a search on "Charles Tolliver" at Dusty Groove to get you started!! (Beware, the sound quality on "Impact" is really weird. The music is great, but the sound is quite odd. Not really 'bad', but very odd.)

A good article that also contrasts jazz and the Pulitzer (near the end of the essay): KIND OF BLUE - Some Thoughts on Music, Culture, and Class. (FYI, it's a .pdf file, so you have to have Adobe.)

A quote from the Village Voice article... Well, one of the better jazz critics I know of (White or Black), happens to be Black. Calvin Wilson, currently at the St. Louis Post Dispatch. He used to be at the Kansas City Star, for several years. He was here when I moved to Kansas City in 1994, and left for the Post in St. Louis in the late 90's. Here's a random sample of his writing... [*]Search for "calvin wilson jazz" at the St. Louis Post Dispatch website. [*]Search for just "calvin wilson" at the St. Louis Post Dispatch website (returns a bunch of other entertainment articles he's written, including a bunch of movie reviews). I haven't prescreened any of these (the results of the searches above), and to be honest, until just now I hadn't seen any of his work since he left K.C. in the late 90's. But I always found his work in the Kansas City Star to be notable, even his movie reviews. And I'd probably subscribe to any jazz magazine that gave him a regular column, even on the strength of just his writing skills alone. Also, here's an interview with Calvin Wilson, from 1997 - that he did with the local Kansas City jazz rag. I'd forgotten until just now that Wilson left K.C. for a year then, to attend the year-long "National Arts Journalism Program Fellowship" at Columbia University. And, here's what appears to be a superb essay Wilson wrote, called KIND OF BLUE - Some Thoughts on Music, Culture, and Class. (I'm only just skimming it now, but it looks good on first glace.) Wilson's got strong opinions, and isn't afraid to take positions on things. But he isn't as inflamitory as Crouch - though who is???

Tolliver..... that hack???

Well, I finally found one about 6 months ago, but Charles Tolliver's "Compassion" was a real bitch to find. I got mine off eBay, from a guy in the U.K. - and this was the only time I ever bid on anything from a country other than the U.S. or Canada. CHARLES TOLLIVER (trumpet) NATHEN PAGE (guitar) -- Note: His name is often misspelled as "Nathan Page" STEVE NOVOSEL (bass) ALVIN QUEEN (drums) Unlike all of Tolliver's other Strata East titles, which have been released on CD recently (late 90's) on Charley, "Compassion" (which is also on Strata East) has only ever been released on CD in the early, early 90's, on (I think) Bellaphone (sp?), in Germany. I think I paid about $30 for the used one I got (including postage from the U.K.), but it was worth it. A great album - if anyone ever sees it, by all means pick it up - for anything less than $20, for sure. I'll have to think about a list of "10-most-wanted", and get back to you...

The key is to edit early, and often...

I'm pretty sure it hasn't. Not 100% sure, but 98% sure. Come to think of it, I don't think there are any Andrew Hill albums that have been released on CD in Japan, that haven't also been released in the U.S. - or if I'm wrong about that, somebody please correct me.

If you're in Chicago, I'm betting you'll get it in about 3 or 4 days (from the time it shipped), at most, maybe even 2 days. Yeah, I guess I should have said "welcome" too!! - where's my manners??? Glad to have you here!! Many of us find the Organissimo board to be the closest thing you can find to the old BNBB. Stick around, we could always use some more people. Again, glad to have you here!!!

The only one of those three that I have is the Blue Mitchell, which I think is really great. I'm planning to get the Turrentine set one of these days, hopefully within the next year or so. One of the best things about the Mitchell set is all the Junior Cook sideman appearances. I hadn't heard much Cook at all (none that I can think of), before I got the Mitchell set. At first, knowing Joe Henderson was on that very first Mitchell album, I kept thinking that Joe Henderson must have been on several other albums in the set. I was shocked to later find that all that "Joe Henderson" I was digging so deeply, was really Junior Cook - playing very much like Joe Henderson. Also, the last two Mitchell albums on the set are nice, in that they are slightly larger groups, much like Duke Pearson's 7-10 piece groups, either under Pearson's name, or groups Pearson did arrangements for (like Mobley's "Slice of the Top", among others). In fact, I don't have the Michell liner-notes handy, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that Pearson did the arrangements for either or both of those last two Michell albums from the Michell Mosaic set. Hey, Sal, please (re)-introduce yourself. You seem to know us (re: "familiar faces"), but I'm really bad with names - and so I'm not sure if I should be remembering you from the BNBB?? - or perhaps you know some of us (but not me) from somewhere else?? Thanks!!

Wow, what great stories, Christiern!!! Can you share any other rememberences of John (Corigliano ) and/or Yoko?? A.B. - I too love Ives' early symphonies, #1 is great, and I especially love #2 - which I seem to find more in every time I hear it. Ives' first two symphonies aren't all that weird (er, um, I mean 'advanced' ), but they are just quirky enough to keep one guessing a bit, even after many repeated listens. Naxos has new recordings of most of Ives' orchestral output (some are already out, others are yet to be released). And in each case, they are from new 'critical editions' of the scores, by perhaps the #1 Ives scholar in the country, John Sinclair. I might also mention that Naxos is planning to release a disc of the complete works of Carl Ruggles, who is every bit as incredible as Ives, IMHO. Ruggles didn't write much (only enough music to fill one 79-minute CD, approximately), but what he did write (or at least his very few orchestral works) rival anything Ives wrote. They were contemporaries, and became friends after both composed their last works. The Naxos "Ruggles" disc won't be out for another year or so, but it should be one of the highlights of their fantastic "American Composers" series.

Me too!! Same thing - I heard that middle movement of "Three Places...", and I was hooked -- the one with the multiple marching-band tunes going on at the same time. I used to focus on Ives' orchestral works mostly, and (at the time), I didn't go as much for solo-piano things. Then I heard Ives' "Concord Sonata" performed live, and I was totally blown away. Although his orchestral work is unquestionably important, I can't help but think (now) that his piano works are equally important, and are of a depth that I haven't found in many other composers. There are two relatively inexpensive Ives' solo-piano releases that are well worth picking up... and Charles Ives: Piano Music (Vox Classical - #5089, 2CD's for $11.00) Charles Ives Works For Piano (Vox Classical - #3034, 3CD's for $16.00) VOX is an inexpensive label - and most of their recordings are from the 70's. Both of these are excelent ways to dig into Ives solo-piano works. (You should be able to find either or both of these at at the CD store in your town that has the best classical section.) There is some overlap between the two, in terms of the works recorded - and if you were only going to get one, I'd get the 3-disc set to start with.

Oh, another one I learned from someone here... You can indent text, by using the 'list' and '/list' commands (between brackets), but without using the corresponding '*' commands (within brackets). Like this... We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. It's like a general 'indent' command, when used without the '*' codes.

OK, I just discovered that you can also do strike-out text with 's' and '/s' between the bracket things. And you can do bullets without having an indented list, just only use the '*' between brackets, without the 'list' and '/list' between brackets. [*]item number one [*]item number two [*]item number three And you can have an image be a link itself, like this picture which links to the AMG review of this album... (click on this image) What else can you do, besides what the board "Code Buttons" make it easy for you to do??? Please, do show off what fancy stuff can be done... PS: There's a way to do numbered lists (or lists with letters), instead of bullet points, but it doesn't appear to work on this board. Here's where I learned some of this stuff (Link: What is vB Code? at AAJ), although the 'strike-out' lettering I picked up from someone's post here on the board, and it isn't listed at the 'vB Code' link above.

Hey, thanks!!!!! Problem solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm very liberal in my opinions about social issues, women's rights, gay rights, etc... I consider myself a moderate democrat, although I usually answer that I'm an independent, when asked. But I would have to agree with Dan here on this one. Just because someone is Black and conservative, doesn't mean that they've 'sold out'. Not everyone who is a Republican believes everything that the Far Right believes, but they might simply believe in less of what the Left stands for, than in what the Right stands for - looking across all issues. For instance, Colon Powell is pro-choice, and more liberal than most of the current administration. But, when he looks at all the issues, and weights the plusses and minuses, he comes down on the conservative side. I don't like the current administation much at all (boy, that's the understatement of the year), BUT, even now - I'd still rather have Powell as President, over Bush, any day of the week. If only someone who was conservative on fiscal issues, but liberal on social issues could somehow get elected. (Actually, they could have a good chance of getting elected, if only they could get past the primaries.) I know, I know - a pipedream at best.

Let me preemptively say this, before anyone cries 'censorship'. This is b3-er's and Use3D's board, and they can do whatever they like with it. Hey Use3D, any chance you could turn off graphics (IMG's) in signatures??? I don’t really care one way or the other about BERIGAN's current cute/ugly sig image, but in general I think images in signatures are a pain in the ass. I think there's nothing wrong with including graphics in an actual posting itself, but to have to see a graphic in every single post by someone (over, and over, and over), especially from someone who posts very often - (IMHO) is just a big visual distraction, to put it kindly. I'm not picking on BERIGAN - if he likes the image that much, he can make it his Avatar for all I care. Just something for you to consider, or not -- it's your board. Thanks!! -- Rooster T.

OK, it's late, so I'm doing this all off the top of my head. But here's a few works specifically by some of the composers mentioned above (but not the works that won the Pulitzer), that I think are quite good, IMHO... [*]William Schuman (b. 1910) - Most of his symphonies are pretty good - quite a bit of meat on the bone (usually, but not always), but not totally far out either. Not my all-time favorite, but worth having none the less. (Schuman is best known for his orchestration of Charles Ives' "Variations on America", which was originally just for church organ.) [*]Howard Hanson (1896-1981) - Definitely a relatively conservative neo-romantic, but a pretty good one. I like his piano concerto quite a bit. It's tuneful, and a couple of the movements are kinda fun. [*]Aaron Copland (1900-1990) - I'll have to look up the details, but much to many people's surprise, Copland tried his hand at Serialism in the late 50's!! There's a disc of chamber works of his from this period, including a piano quintet, and a couple works for string quartet. Not at all what you expect when you hear the name Copland, but somehow - even when he's being Serial, he still sounds a little bit like Copland, strangely enough. [*]Charles Ives (1874-1954) - What's not to like??!!! Get anything and everything you can by Ives. In particular, his solo-piano works are simply divine, especially his two piano sonatas. There is a newly reconstructed piano concerto by Ives, that was only ever first performed just a couple years ago. It has been recorded, but hasn't been released yet, on Naxos (as part of their amazing American Composers series). When it comes out (this Fall I think), by all means get it. I've heard it performed live, and it's amazing!!! [*]Walter Piston (1894-1976) - I like most of the Piston I've heard. I don't love all of it, but I do like all of it. I can easily recomend a recent Naxos disc of chamber works, including his quintet for flute plus strings (f, v, v, viola, cello). [*]Virgil Thomson (1896-1989) - He was originally from Kansas City. Don't have much, but what I've heard reminds me of Copland. A little too 'nice' for my ears, but good if you like that sort of thing. [*]Gian-Carlo Menotti (b. 1911) - Samual Barber's life-long 'partner', if you know what I mean. I don't have much by Menotti, but he does have a nice violin concerto, if I remember right. [*]Ernst Toch (1887-1964) - Can't say enough good things about Toch, a composer I only just discovered for the first time a couple years ago. There are two discs of his symphonies on CPO, and several discs of his string quartets too. Complex but not too busy, all at the same time. One of my current favorites. [*]Samuel Barber (1910-1981) - Nobody knows Barber's 2nd symphony (only a few recordings have been done), but it's a masterpiece. Written during WWII, Barber had the score and all the parts destroyed a few years later (in the early 50's), but a set of parts were found in the late 80's, and finally it was recorded and released. There's a good and inexpensive recording on Naxos, and another one on Chandos. Barber's violin and piano concertos are great too. [*]Elliott Carter (b. 1908) - I don't have very much Carter, but I need to do something about that. What I have I like, but I couldn't even begin to remember what I have by him. [*]Roger Sessions (1896-1985) - my favorite Serial composer after Schoenberg and Berg. (Actually, I probably like Sessions a bit more than either Schoenberg or Berg, sometimes anyway.) Most of his CD's are out of print, but if you can find his symphonies 6, 7, & 9 (recorded by the American Composers Orchestra), it'll change your life - if you like that sort of thing. I'll add to this list tomorrow. It's getting late, and I don't have the energy now to do the more recent composers from the list above. Many of them I don't really know that, but I few I do. Check back again, and I'll have more... OK, one more... John Corigliano's first symphony is a winner.

So, then, what's the scoop on Joe Henderson's "Power to the People"?? Is it only available as an import?? Is it available in a jewel-box?? - or (as I suspect), only in one of those god-awful "mini-LP" formats. Of all of Joe's Milestone material, "Power..." really needs to be available domestically as a single-CD release. (IMHO), it's by far Joe's best Milestone release (and I like most of them), and one could argue that it's his best album after leaving Blue Note (or at least certainly one of them). ===== Just answered my own question, at Dusty Groove... Milestone/Universe (Italy), 1969 Condition: New Copy One of the best, and certainly the rarest, of the Joe Henderson electric sides from the early 70s! The record features Joe hitting a wonderful warm spiritual vibe -- playing with an excellent group that features Herbie Hancock on electric piano, Ron Carter on bass, and Jack DeJohnette on drums -- plus additional trumpet by Mike Lawrence on 2 tracks. Tracks are long and flowing -- with a mode that's a perfect bridge between Joe's Blue Note work, and the spiritual soul jazz sound of the 70s! Titles include "Black Narcissus", "Isotope", "Afro-Centric", and "Power to The People". (Issued in a cool 5" gatefold cover!) So, then, what's "Universe"?? And what else are they reissuing?? And why isn't Fantasy/OJC putting this out??

Thanks for the kind words, Jazzmoose. I too wish I could find more conversation-space like this, both on-line, and in the 'real world' too. And actually, that was kinda what this thread was all about in the first place --- about me trying to find ways to have conversations like this (or constructive conversations (and opportunities for such conversations) of some sort, any sort really) with people of different races. Some good news - Just today I discovered that there's a monthly (or maybe it's every other week) breakfast-meeting between members of our church (which is 90% White, 7% "other, non-Black", and 3% Black -- I'm guessing at those stats, but you get the idea) and members of an "all-Black" church that's also here in Kansas City. Time to get on the horn and find out when the next meetin' is, and get my tail down there to it. Does anybody else here on the Organissimo board live in a 'hypersegregated' city?? - meaning a city where the living/neighborhood paterns are divided very strongly by race?? Kansas City is like that, and I remember St. Louis (where I grew up) as being like that too (although to a slightly lesser degree). I'm sure I'm not the only one here in this boat, but I seem to be the only one in this kind of situation who's contributing to this thread. If anybody's reading this thread, and not contributing - please consider joining in. I know this isn't nearly as much 'fun' as most of the other political threads, but I would appreciate some other perspectives on this topic. Thanks!!

I've got the "Who's Crazy" set on CD, and there's a chance I might be willing to part with it. I haven't spun it in a long, long time. And if it's been that long, then I'm temped to consider whether I really need it or not. I make no promises, but I'll give it a spin a few times over the next couple days, and see if I feel the desparate urge to keep it or not. (David, you've got right of first refusal, if I decide to part with it - that is if you're interested.)

I'll hafta look through the list, and get back to you, A.B. - many of these are pretty obscure, and I'm not sure the Pulitzer really goes to the best work or best composer each year. (Duh, that was the point of the story, to some degree.) I'm 5 minutes late to a rehearsal - I'll post something else here to this thread in the next day or two... Gotta run!!!

Hadn't realized that this had come out by itself?? I thought "Power to the People" was only available as part of the big Joe Henderson "Milestone" box set, or as as some sort of import (I thought I read from Italy - ??). Anyway, I'm pretty sure it isn't available as a regular domestic release from OJC/Fantasy. (It wasn't in their on-line catalog anyway.) Appreciate the offer, undergroundagent. I already have the Joe "Milestone" box, but might take you up on it. Lemme think about it. (We can take it up through PM's or e-mail.)

OK, maybe you've got it on CD, as part of a big box set, or now-long-out-of-print import, but what about your jazz buddies who don't have it, and can't get it without paying a mint for it on eBay??? OK, what albums do you really wish were not only on CD, but on CD in the U.S. (or in your part of the world), in a nice "reasonably" priced single-CD format (meaning not available only as part of some huge box set), so that you could easily tell other people "they gotta get this one!!!". One that comes to mind is Joe Henderson's "Power To The People", which is probably my favorite non-Blue Note release from Joe. Another one, that will be fixed soon (in October!!!) is Larry Young's "Mother Ship!!" What albums should be easily available to everyone, for a decent price??? - that currently aren't!!!

I both agree with you, Noj, and disagree too - in different ways... To the extent that cultural pride in one's ethnic heritage (sometimes) can resemble something more like the "I'm better than you are!!" nature that fans of pro and college sports often demonstrate... I agree, totally. IMHO, pride in one's own 'group' (however that group is defined) can certainly take on an unpleasant tone, at times. But, much of pride in one's cultural heritage is often wrapped up in foods, music(!), decorations, dance, folk-art, folklore, and shared history. I think it's hard not to appreciate to the collective culture of dozens and hundred's of years of tradition within a particular cultural community (sometimes even thousands of years). And I don't think that celebrating these sorts of things necessarily reduces the value of other cultures not being celebrated. (Meaning a Cinco de Mayo street festival isn't an expression of the lack of worth of Japanese culture, for instance, or the lack of worth of any other non-Mexican culture.) But, getting back to my sports analogy, I'm totally with you, Noj, in one respect. Extreme pride in one's self because of some loosely defined association (as in the simple case of rabid sports fans of a particular team), is often pretty ugly (IMHO). And the same thing goes with someone thinking that they're really 'bad', with lots of attitude about it -- simply because they're Black, or Chicano, or a German 'skin-head', or a Cubs fan, or any of 1000 other examples that you can probably find in most cultures (or sub-cultures). I guess it all depends on the intent behind the expression of pride in one's self, when that pride stems from something other than individual achievements. (PS: And no, Noj, I don't think you're coming across 'badly'. I think this is turning into a good discussion!!)

I mostly lurk at AAJ, and I don't check it nearly as frequently as here. For whatever reason, it seems that the jazz-related threads on AJJ are of less interest to me. For instance, shortly after I joined, I did a search on the AAJ board for topics about Andrew Hill, Charles Tolliver, Woody Shaw, and/or Larry Young - and I found very little discussion about any of these guys. Hill especially - how can a jazz board not really ever talk about Andrew Hill??? Seems also that there are are a few people on the AAJ board (not many, but a few that post fairly often) that have some pretty strong opinions about what "is" jazz, and what "isn't" jazz --- or at least what is "good" jazz, and what isn't "good" jazz. And those kinds of arguments really don't do much for me. The vibe here is a bit more "everyone can like what they want to like" in terms of music, which is good. (FYI: I certainly have lots of strong opinions about what I think is good, and what isn't - but I don't think it does any good to screw-up a perfectly OK thread that someone else has started. In fact, sometimes I find I learn something I didn't know, and I'll go back and check out something I previously had dismissed.) Although, I might say that I'm getting a little bit tired of the amount of political conversation here (specifically the number of political threads, vs. the number of other threads). I'm not suggesting any kind of action be taken to change this, but I am entitled to my opinion. Some days it seems like half the traffic on the board is in the "political topics" area. Often I think it just bogs down the board, and turns off other jazz-interested people from sticking around. Just my opinion.