Herbie Hancock

[PHILLYQ]

Hancock is great in everything he does. Recently I listened again to the first VSOP, that double album from 1976 with the acoustic quintet, the sextet with Maupin and Buster Williams, and the funky stuff with Wah Wah Watson. Great stuff, a journey through more than 10 years of Hancock´s musical history.

I was at that concert- it was a blast!!!

[Gheorghe]

Hancock is great in everything he does. Recently I listened again to the first VSOP, that double album from 1976 with the acoustic quintet, the sextet with Maupin and Buster Williams, and the funky stuff with Wah Wah Watson. Great stuff, a journey through more than 10 years of Hancock´s musical history.

I was at that concert- it was a blast!!!

Oh, you lucky ! It might be considered one of those unforgettable concerts, like the 1953 Massey Hall or something. I grew up in that period (mid seventies) and heard the guys that played and created music then. So, to me stuff like this is history.

Some other personal memories about or around Herbie Hancock:

I remember well when some other guy from school borrowed me the "Headhunters" album so I taped it. Until then (1975 I think) I didn´t even know that Herbie also played or plays acoustic stuff. That was the times we lived in. See: Keyboards meant electric keyboards, if you wanted to be update. From acoustic piano, during that time I only had heard from Oscar Peterson, since the older guys spoke about him or had his records.

But I dug the acoustic Miles Davis stuff, because Miles was like God and you got to know everything he ever did. So, when I purchased that "Miles in Europe" (Antibes 1963) with Herbie Hancock on it..........when I played it I was quite astonished. Is THAT Herbie Hancock, is THAT THE Herbie Hancock???? Sure I loved it, because - though "old acoustic jazz", it sounded "cool" to me, fresh, you know ? Not "corny" like the "Peterson-Piano" I had heard before.....

[Guy Berger]

On 3/29/2005 at 4:48 PM, mikeweil said:

Interesting to read different evaluations of these LPs ...

I have most of them, bought them right away when they were issued, and kept them all, there was a German radio jazz station presenting them all as soon as they were out, and a Munich mail order shop that imported them.

If you list all of these LPs from that pool of musicians it shows they are pretty much a mixed bag:

 

Herbie Hancock - Mwandishi (Warner) *****

Herbie Hancock - Crossings (Warner) *****

Herbie Hancock - Sextant (Columbia) *****

 

Eddie Henderson - Realization (Capricorn) ****

Eddie Henderson - Inside Out (Capricorn) ****

Eddie Henderson - Sunburst (Blue Note) ****

Eddie Henderson - Heritage (Blue Note) ***

Eddie Henderson - Comin' Through (Capitol) **

Eddie Henderson - Mahal (Capitol) **

 

Bennie Maupin - The Jewel In The Lotus (ECM) *****

Bennie Maupin - Slow Traffic to the Right (Mercury) ***

Bennie Maupin - Moonscapes (Mercury) ?

 

Julian Priester - Love, Love (ECM) ****

Julian Priester - Polarization (ECM) ****

 

Norman Connors - Dance of Magic (Cobblestone) ****

Norman Connors - Dark of Light (Cobblestone) **

Norman Connors - Love From the Sun (Buddah) ****

Norman Connors - Slewfoot (Buddah) *

 

Carlos Garnett - Black Love (Muse) ***

Carlos Garnett - Journey to Enlightenment (Muse) ?

Carlos Garnett - Let this melody ring on (Muse) ?

Carlos Garnett - Cosmos Nucleus (Muse) ?

 

One could add more Herbie Hancock, and the Headhunters, to the list, and Return to Forever, Weather Report, Mahavishnu, Lifetime, and fusion albums from these circles (Alphonso Johnson, Billy Cobham, Jan Hammer, etc, etc.) but the above have core members of the Mwandishi band as a common denominator.

They range from acoustic free-fusion (Lotus) over next-to-free-form (Magic - Connors was fresh out of the Pharoah Sanders band that recorded Black Unity, which included Billy Hart, Cecil McBee, Stanley Clarke, and Carlos Garnett, all of which are on Magic!), over electro-acoustic free form fusion (Mwandishi et al) over electric fusion with lots of improvisation (the first two Hendersons and Priester) to funk leanings (the third Henderson and second/third Maupins) and bland commercial outings (the later Connors and Henderson LPs). The three LPs of the Mwandishi band are at the core of this, and they were the main inspiration and artistic pinnacle - the first Eddie Hendersons were just a free-form version of them. Everything after was less satisfying - except Lotus, which is a purely acoustic take on the Mwandishi experiments - and it is especially astonishing to see Norman Connors' development from a free form player from the Sanders band into an average funk drummer, or rather singer - he wanted to sell, that's for sure. Love From the Sun is a beautiful album - it's a pity he didn't follow that direction, but that personnel was impossible to take on the road. Carlos Garnett did pursue that path somewhat on his Muse albums. The stars are my personal ratings - the less, the more bland commercial content.

The 1970's scene was wild - a large number of players was exploring that wide field between free and fusion, with mixed results, and only few didn't record some fusion or funk inflected album (e.g. Tyner, but he had players from that circle in his band, Alphonze Mouzon first of all).

The music was fresh and exciting then, and avant-garde, but the commercialization was to follow very fast.

IMHO this is one of the best / most useful posts in the history of this forum.  Thanks @mikeweil !!!

[mikeweil]

Thanks for the kind words .... 

Edited January 2, 2019 by mikeweil

[Rooster_Ties]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2005 at 6:48 PM, mikeweil said:

Eddie Henderson - Realization (Capricorn) ****

Eddie Henderson - Inside Out (Capricorn) ****

This is ultimately a matter of personal taste I entirely realize -- but I think both of those first two Eddie Henderson leader-dates are every bit the equal (5-stars) as any/all of Herbie's Mwandishi, Crossings, and Sextant albums.

In fact, to tell the truth, I almost think those two Eddie albums are almost a hair *better* than those 3 Herbie albums.

[mikeweil]

Herbie's albums are much heavier on the compositional side, Edde's put the emphasis on improvisation. I think the solos on Herbie's are a bit deeper because they are more challenged by the writing, but each to his own.

[HutchFan]

That's interesting, Rooster. I've tried and tried to connect with those two Henderson Capricorn records, but I still don't enjoy them as much as other records in "Herbie's orbit."  For me, Mwandishi is still THE record from that time & place.

Again, as you say, purely personal taste at work here. 

[BFrank]

Seeing Herbie tomorrow night "subbing" for Wayne at SFJAZZ. Wayne had to cancel his 4 dates here because of illness. So instead of cancelling, they're bringing in guests to play with his band over 4 nights and calling them "Tributes." Tomorrow it's HH, Terrence Blanchard and Terrace Martin.

[corto maltese]

 

These evaluations date from 2005, almost 14 years ago. I think, at that time, I would have agreed with most of mikeweil's stars.

Since then, I've largely lost interest in that kind of avant/free-form fusion. Or to be more precise: I still like the music well enough, but I don't actively listen to it and I don't feel the need to have the records in my collection. So I disposed of most of these. One notable exception is Bennie Maupin's "The Jewel In The Lotus", which has always been -and still is- my favourite of this bunch, probably because Hancock's playing (mostly) acoustic piano (and there's no sight of Patrick Gleason's gadgetry).

[mikeweil]

I'm still with my evaluations from 2005 - not much of fusion music has aged well, but the three albums of the Mwandishi band are still great.

[HutchFan]

5 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

I'm still with my evaluations from 2005 - not much of fusion music has aged well, but the three albums of the Mwandishi band are still great.

I'm with you, Mike. I think they're "important" records -- and I also happen to really, really like them.

I probably listen to Sextant the least -- perhaps because Gleeson seems to be the most prominent on that one (?) -- but I still think it's a tremendous record.  I just like the two WB records more.

[JSngry]

I've grown into Sextant over the years, and now tend to prefer it, actually. But it took time.

[felser]

The Carlos Garnett "Journey To Enlightenment" and "Let This Melody Ring On" are wonderful albums, but vocal-heavy, and not pure jazz.  4 or 5 stars each. for sure, for those who are willing to open their barriers.  "Cosmos Nucleus" is more generic, and 3 stars. The Connors "Slewfoot" album also isn't pure jazz and isn't really a good album, but contains one of my all-time favorite cuts (regardless of genre), the definitive reading of Carlos Garnett's awesome "Mother of the Future" with a great Jean Carne vocal.   

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by felser

[HutchFan]

I need to check out those Carlos Garnett records. I know and really like "Black Love" -- but I've never dug any deeper into his discography. 

[mikeweil]

Norman Connors made great music between free and fusion before he went funk/disco (although the later albums fare well in that genre, I think). The masterpieces are Dance of Magic, hitting right in the middle between Mwandishi and Pharoah Sanders' "Black Unity", and "Love From The Sun", which is simply beautiful. No less than beautiful.

... or the CD incarnation:

Herbie is a major presence on both.

If I'm not mistaken, the latter never was on CD, which is a shame.

p.s. Just saw it was, combined with "Slewfoot":

Edited January 3, 2019 by mikeweil

[corto maltese]

2 hours ago, mikeweil said:

Norman Connors made great music between free and fusion before he went funk/disco (although the later albums fare well in that genre, I think). The masterpieces are Dance of Magic, hitting right in the middle between Mwandishi and Pharoah Sanders' "Black Unity", and "Love From The Sun", which is simply beautiful. No less than beautiful.

... or the CD incarnation:

Herbie is a major presence on both.

If I'm not mistaken, the latter never was on CD, which is a shame.

p.s. Just saw it was, combined with "Slewfoot":

Yes, "Dance Of Magic" is another favourite that I kept, but that's also a largely acoustic album and, like you said, more free/spiritual (especially the side-long title track) than anything "fusion" (implied by the title and Connors' subsequent albums).

My remark on your evaluations was of course not a criticism, but just an observation about my own changing preferences. I really appreciate your well weighed judgements and pointed comments. In fact, I'd love to read your opinion about (and evaluation of) the recently reissued Terumasa Hino albums, discussed in another topic. They obviously don't belong to the "Mwandishi orbit", but they're not entirely incomparable with some of the more free/avant-garde titles  discussed here.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sorry, I thought the entire fusion movement was a cheap effort for $$ 

My feelings have not changed.

[mikeweil]

In many, if not most cases, it sure was. There are some where it was musical experiment and curiosity.

I remember, btw., German critic Ulrich Ohlshausen saying at some point in the early 1970's that groups like Terumasa Hino or Ian Carr were playing Miles' post Bitches Brew music better than he did. I remember seeing the Hino band in a long TV broadcast but never bought any of his records, so I cannot comment on them. 

[JSngry]

13 hours ago, mikeweil said:

I remember, btw., German critic Ulrich Ohlshausen saying at some point in the early 1970's that groups like Terumasa Hino or Ian Carr were playing Miles' post Bitches Brew music better than he did.

That's kind of a meaningless comparison, because Miles himself kept moving. Bitches Brew music was not Fillmore music was not Jack Johnson music was not Live-Evil music was definitely not On the Corner music and for damn sure was not Agharta/Pangea music.

Miles drew up a buttload of blueprints for others to build houses by. No matter how well-built the houses were built, they existed only because the architect designed them that way.

13 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Sorry, I thought the entire fusion movement was a cheap effort for $$ 

My feelings have not changed.

I'm having a hard time remembering "the entire fusion movement"...it never seemed monolithic to me. Not at the beginning (especially not at the beginning) and not at the end, either. Too many formulas devolved as it went along, and that's the drudgery.

I do, though, remember plenty of cheap efforts, too many. But I also recall some pretty good records as well (again, less as time went by), and if they were going for $$, they had the decency to do it well.

[felser]

22 hours ago, HutchFan said:

I need to check out those Carlos Garnett records. I know and really like "Black Love" -- but I've never dug any deeper into his discography. 

"Journey To Enlightenment" and "Let This Melody Ring On"   are in the same vein as "Black Love", and even better albums.  Carpe Diem while they are still available.

[danasgoodstuff]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

That's kind of a meaningless comparison, because Miles himself kept moving. Bitches Brew music was not Fillmore music was not Jack Johnson music was not Live-Evil music was definitely not On the Corner music and for damn sure was not Agharta/Pangea music.

Miles drew up a buttload of blueprints for others to build houses by. No matter how well-built the houses were built, they existed only because the architect designed them that way.

I'm having a hard time remembering "the entire fusion movement"...it never seemed monolithic to me. Not at the beginning (especially not at the beginning) and not at the end, either. Too many formulas devolved as it went along, and that's the drudgery.

I do, though, remember plenty of cheap efforts, too many. But I also recall some pretty good records as well (again, less as time went by), and if they were going for $$, they had the decency to do it well.

What he said, all of it.  And more.

[HutchFan]

20 minutes ago, felser said:

"Journey To Enlightenment" and "Let This Melody Ring On"   are in the same vein as "Black Love", and even better albums.  Carpe Diem while they are still available.

Thanks, felser. More for the "To Get" list.  

[mikeweil]

On 4.1.2019 at 2:36 PM, JSngry said:

That's kind of a meaningless comparison, because Miles himself kept moving. Bitches Brew music was not Fillmore music was not Jack Johnson music was not Live-Evil music was definitely not On the Corner music and for damn sure was not Agharta/Pangea music.

Ohlshausen may not have liked Miles' later outings, but certainly couldn't have known them at a time when Ian Carr's Nucleus and Terumasa Hino made their first records in that style - and he was kinda right about these. They had a looser approch than Miles, especially considering Bitches Brew and others being spliced together as much as they were. Pianist George Gruntz meant something similar when he said that he felt nobody on Bitches Brew had really cut loose.

The problem is in the  evaluation as such, methinks. Different approches yield different results. None of those early fusion guys could have known where it all would go, musicaly and commercially.

Edited January 5, 2019 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

Still think it's a meaningless comparison, if only because Bitches Brew was indeed a record, and somewhat  a "created" one at that. But that music was also being played live, quite more intensely than what came out of that one record, and if that guy didn't have access to those live shows, then what does that opinion count for, really. It's another case of people conflating records and music.

And it's also kind of like, who was it from Kenton's band, Buddy Childress, or maybe Kenton himself telling Dizzy that  "we're playing your music better than you are", I mean, who even thinks like that to begin with? If that's the right answer, then it's the wrong question.

As for Gruntz, well sure, why not? But even more importantly, why? So nobody "cuts loose", but it's still a record that changed the world (so to speak). Priorities, please.