Dunlop and Ore

[MomsMobley]

Wrong!

I'm not saying that John or I are "right" here, just that this is what two such people thought at the time, when we and Monk and all were still alive in the same continuum, for whatever that's worth.

Nah, you and John were right but perhaps for the wrong reasons: Dunlop's fine, whatever, it's Monk that's more than half snooze by this point. Frankie made things busier but not better, yes, but "better" wasn't what Monk wanted, or was at least capable of performing in a band context at that point. Thus the ONLY necessary Columbia Monk are the solo recordings though sure, there are some nice things scattered throughout. Nice enough?

Well, nicer than too flush knuckleheads buying their x to the nth power iteration of digital Miles but what do I know?

I thought people who claim to listen so closely would want to listen to MORE also. Me, I'll take the sidedrum kicking in Nielsen's Clarinet Concerto every time.

[JSngry]

Wrong!

I'm not saying that John or I are "right" here, just that this is what two such people thought at the time, when we and Monk and all were still alive in the same continuum, for whatever that's worth.

Well, on the one hand, you get to react to what you were used to hearing (which was no doubt what you thought - and understandably so - you should continue hearing) vs what all of sudden you started hearing.

On the other hand, maybe what was actually going on was different than all that. Definitely was, but...how old were you in 1941 when Monk was playing all that "swing" style piano @ Minton's? Did the idea of Monk maybe wanting to have a more "danceable" (i.e. - "populist") feel to his music now that he was playing for more people more often enter your assessment? Not saying that it should have, but it makes sense to me. I mean, Dunlop played like Monk danced!

To me, the Ore/Dunlop rhythm section was the full-flowering of Monk's happiness at finally being "discovered" and appreciated. The Warren/Riley rhythm section feels more like the resultant comfort/complacency.

I know the notion of Monk as "popular artist" flies under (or over?) the usual "critical radar", but...why not? Why the heel not? Why shouldn't Monk ahve been happy playing for larger crowds, making more money, getting some respect outside the "inner circle", and why shouldn't he hire a drummer who fit that mood?

The real fault I find with all those 60s bands is with Monk as a bandleader. He let everybody play too goddamned long. Rouse was always good for 2-3 tight choruses, but after that...not so much (OOOF!) Same thing w/Ore's choruses. With Dunlop, I find no fault, but on every tune? That band would have relentlessly kicked ass for a set of five minute go-rounds, but...Monk was enjoying himself...double-edged sword.

But Frankie Dunlop, HELL YEAH!

(and FWIW, I really don't know what "real rhythmic interaction" is when just used as a description of people who did their things in their way. What, then, is false rhythmic interaction? To me, that means not being inside the music, Just because it's "flashy"(and Dunlop was certainly that) or "clever" (ditto) doesn't meant that it's not "real" (same again) or that it wasn't, most importantly) musically organic. Dunlop's shit sounds incredibly & totally musically organic to me, just not 1941-Minton's musically organic or 1953 broke-ass piano Prestige musically organic, or even 1958 the-sun-starts-coming-out-again musically organic. For that matter, Riley is musically organic in his own way (and sounds pretty good sometimes, just never...dynamic...not like he did w/Jaws & Griff).

Frankie Dunlop w/Monk in 1951 would have been weird. Frankie Dunlop w/Monk in 1961 was totally cool. Then again, what I lack in the real benefits of having "been there at the time" I make up for with the equally real benefit of having come to it while "it" was still happening in (some kind of) real time, but also when there was an accumulated-enough sense of back-story to look at it all as one piece instead of some kind of breaking-off/away point. On the whole, I'll take what I got, because it's all I do got. Not for nothing was Breakthrough! one of all-time favorite Mobley sides, & not for nothing do I dig the shit out of Frankie Dunlop (although Monk let everybody play too long).

Just my opinion, but in this case it's also the truth!

Frankie made things busier....

Nonononononononono... Dunlop was encapsulated! Compact!

And yeah, flashy. Quite. but so what? His shit was in there.

[JSngry]

Thus the ONLY necessary Columbia Monk are the solo recordings

No, the live big-band recording is necessary too. More than the Riverside one.

[clifford_thornton]

I've come to appreciate Solo Monk on Columbia more and more over the years. It has been some time since I've listened to the small-group Monk Columbias, though they were among the first jazz LPs I bought / heard and in any event, probably paid the most attention at the time to Monk and Rouse.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The bit of Monk that GOT to me was a little piece of film I saw of him playing "Blue Monk" in a trio (don't know who the b & d were played by). But he was grinning and smiling all the time and his arse was screwing around on that piano stool like he was getting ready to go to bed with Nelly. And I thought THAT'S WHERE IT'S AT!!!!

But so far, I haven't found Monk recordings that do that.

MG

[jazzbo]

As a drummer, here's the keystone fact: for me Dunlop embodies all the traits I'd wish a drummer to have. That quartet is probably my favorite Monk Quartet because of his playing. It' just is so definitively MOVING in a motion sense. His mind and body dancing with Monk. I consider it a personal milestone in my jazz listening journey.

[Simon8]

Fresh thoughts on Dunlop & Ore:

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/2014/12/frankie-dunlop-and-john-ore.html

[Big Beat Steve]

I saw Dunlop and Ore with the Monk Quartet at the Free Trade Hall, Manchester in April 1961. Dunlop swung like crazy!

Lucky lucky lucky.

Lucky indeed ..

... though a belated question (I noticed this thread only now):

I pulled out my copy of Bill Birch's "Keeper of the Flame" book, hoping to find photos of that concert, but the text (and picture caption) mentions Larry Gales (b) and Ben Riley (dr) for the 1961 (May) concert of Monk at the FTH.

Same musicians as for Monk's 1965 concert at the FTH.

Who's right, who's wrong, I wonder?

[paul secor]

I just listened to Ben Riley playing with Monk's quartet. Made me appreciate Frankie Dunlop even more.

[BillF]

I saw Dunlop and Ore with the Monk Quartet at the Free Trade Hall, Manchester in April 1961. Dunlop swung like crazy!

Lucky lucky lucky.

Lucky indeed ..

... though a belated question (I noticed this thread only now):

I pulled out my copy of Bill Birch's "Keeper of the Flame" book, hoping to find photos of that concert, but the text (and picture caption) mentions Larry Gales (b) and Ben Riley (dr) for the 1961 (May) concert of Monk at the FTH.

Same musicians as for Monk's 1965 concert at the FTH.

Who's right, who's wrong, I wonder?

No, it was Dunlop and Ore at the FTH in May 1961. I was there! Ore was sent out first to play lengthy solos alone as Monk was in one of his slow-to-show moods. When the group finally appeared, Dunlop's bouncy swing was like something I'd never heard before!

[Big Beat Steve]

OK, thanks - I will correct the entry in the book.

[medjuck]

The bit of Monk that GOT to me was a little piece of film I saw of him playing "Blue Monk" in a trio (don't know who the b & d were played by). But he was grinning and smiling all the time and his arse was screwing around on that piano stool like he was getting ready to go to bed with Nelly. And I thought THAT'S WHERE IT'S AT!!!!

But so far, I haven't found Monk recordings that do that.

MG

From Jazz on a Summer's Day?

[Caravan]

The bit of Monk that GOT to me was a little piece of film I saw of him playing "Blue Monk" in a trio (don't know who the b & d were played by). But he was grinning and smiling all the time and his arse was screwing around on that piano stool like he was getting ready to go to bed with Nelly. And I thought THAT'S WHERE IT'S AT!!!!

But so far, I haven't found Monk recordings that do that.

MG

From Jazz on a Summer's Day?

[medjuck]

The bit of Monk that GOT to me was a little piece of film I saw of him playing "Blue Monk" in a trio (don't know who the b & d were played by). But he was grinning and smiling all the time and his arse was screwing around on that piano stool like he was getting ready to go to bed with Nelly. And I thought THAT'S WHERE IT'S AT!!!!

But so far, I haven't found Monk recordings that do that.

MG

From Jazz on a Summer's Day?

Ahhh. The Sound of Jazz. Monk later complained about Count Basie staring at him.

[Larry Kart]

With Ahmed Abdul Malik and Osie Johnson.

[Gheorghe]

About John Ore: I´m quite sure he was exactly what Monk wanted. Monk didn´t like too much solo bass on gigs. And that kind of anticlimax, Monk doing only some spare comping and the bass just walkin on, that´s part of Monks philosophy.

Are not many bass players left who understand that.

Tried it for many times: I would have liked to get that anticlimax feeling. Just after a few chorusses one more, just with a few notes or chords , but if you try that out, the bassists immediatly "jump" on a solo. They don´t have the patience just to keep it where it is and walk on.

I tried to tell it and they say yeah I can dig that, that´s where we go, and on stage, they will forget about it.....

The only time I heard John Ore doing much solo was with Bud at Birdland: During that time, after he played his chorusses, Bud just stopped playing, he wouldn´t even do comping for the bass solos. So John Ore had to fill up the space, that´s why he plays so many and so long solos on Bud´s sets at Birdland and on the record.....

[soulpope]

The only time I heard John Ore doing much solo was with Bud at Birdland: During that time, after he played his chorusses, Bud just stopped playing, he wouldn´t even do comping for the bass solos. So John Ore had to fill up the space, that´s why he plays so many and so long solos on Bud´s sets at Birdland and on the record.....

To me Ore`s playing and the additional soloing space available are a major asset of these Bud Powell recordings Gheorge mentiones (aka Paudrais Collection Box)........

[Milestones]

sgcim,

OK, that's a serious charge. Is there anything to it besides hearsay?

[Milestones]

As for Dunlop, I'm coming to a greater appreciation of his artistry. However, I think I will always believe that Art Blakey was the best drummer for Monk.

Does anyone know why Dunlop retired in 1984 (and yet lived another 30 years)?

[sgcim]

sgcim,

OK, that's a serious charge. Is there anything to it besides hearsay?

No, as usual, it's her word against reality, and she usually lost in that regard. I'll delete the post, but she was a cop/jazz musician back then, so maybe she had some inside knowledge.

She woke up one morning to find the pianist in the band dead next to her of an OD of coke and methadone, so we're treading in some dark, murky waters here...

Edited January 6, 2015 by sgcim

[jazzbo]

As for Dunlop, I'm coming to a greater appreciation of his artistry. However, I think I will always believe that Art Blakey was the best drummer for Monk.

Does anyone know why Dunlop retired in 1984 (and yet lived another 30 years)?

Looks as if Frankie retired at 56 or so in '84. He may have been tired, may have been too much pain and hassle. He spent a lot of time it seems with Lionel Hampton. That may be a reason too!

[Simon8]

As for Dunlop, I'm coming to a greater appreciation of his artistry. However, I think I will always believe that Art Blakey was the best drummer for Monk.

Does anyone know why Dunlop retired in 1984 (and yet lived another 30 years)?

Looks as if Frankie retired at 56 or so in '84. He may have been tired, may have been too much pain and hassle. He spent a lot of time it seems with Lionel Hampton. That may be a reason too!

Dunlop on his time with Hampton:

"Playing with Monk was the greatest challenge of my melodic playing. For power, my greatest challenge was Maynard. For stamina, my greatest challenge was with Lionel Hampton's big band. Just let him stomp off "Flyin' Home" and that song will be going for 30 minutes. If I wasn't in 100% physical shape, I'd be biting the dust right now. I was with Hampton for seven years. There have been quite a few drummers that Hamp worked to death. Wilbur Hogan and George Jenkins come to mind [...] In Hamp's band, the drummer is a workhorse. In any Lionel Hampton set, you can look for five tunes: "Sweet Georgia Brown," "Basin Street," "Flyin' Home," "Hamp's Boogie Woogie," and "In The Mood." Those are five songs that you're going to do every night, come rain or come shine. And those are the back breakers."

[johnblitweiler]

After 50+ years I have a somewhat different feeling about Ore and Dunlop. That quartet was the first time I heard Monk in the flesh, and the way they swung was just glorious, uplifting - no subsequent Monk band or anybody else whom I heard live affected me that much. John Ore's aggression was a wonder and, whatever Dunlop's hyperactivity, he had that swing that served Monk so well. Certain bassists (Ware, Malik, Ore) had a propulsion that inspired Monk - notice especially Monk's live recordings with Malik and Ore.

And Ore and Ronnie Boykin on Saga Of The Outlaws are absolutely levitating.

[Peter Friedman]

I agree with those who believe that Art Blakey was the best drummer with Monk.

Ben Riley with Monk was nothing special, BUT when I saw him live a few times with the Kenny Barron Trio he was marvelous.

Riley playing with Kenny was the ultimate in tasty trio drumming. His 8's, and 4's were perfect. in fact, Ben with Kenny Barron

reminded me at times of the best tap dancer in the world.

Ben's playing with Kenny Barron on a number of recordings is, for me, simply outstanding.

[Ted O'Reilly]

I agree with those who believe that Art Blakey was the best drummer with Monk.

Ben Riley with Monk was nothing special, BUT when I saw him live a few times with the Kenny Barron Trio he was marvelous.

Riley playing with Kenny was the ultimate in tasty trio drumming. His 8's, and 4's were perfect. in fact, Ben with Kenny Barron

reminded me at times of the best tap dancer in the world.

Ben's playing with Kenny Barron on a number of recordings is, for me, simply outstanding.

I heartily agree!