Lee Morgan - Complete Live at the Lighthouse

[Mark13]

In the 'Rollins in Holland'-thread under 'New Releases' @david weiss mentioned that a 12-lp boxed-set containing all the live material that Lee Morgan recorded at the Lighthouse is due to appear on Blue Note Records in 2021. Apparently, an 8-cd release is planned as well.

I do not have Cuscuna's official discography of the label and have to rely on information that I find online. The Lee Morgan-Discography Project -page indeed mentions a lot of extra material but refers to it as 'rejected'. Is it safe to assume that the good people at Blue Note have changed their minds and now deem these tracks fit for release? Or have they made new discoveries in their vaults? I was quick to pick op the 3-cd set when it was released in 1996 but always was under the impression that it was complete. The announcement that there is enough to fill 8 cds comes as a total surprise. 

Not that I'm complaining. If this appears I will be more than happy to add it to my collection. Wow!

[Dmitry]

Scroll to the bottom of this page. 

 

[Mark13]

Thanks @Dmitry!

[king ubu]

Hoping for a CD version ... as for info/tracklists, I'd assume this is about as good as it gets at this time (1970-07-10/11/12):

https://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/9780472115020-Discography.pdf

[danasgoodstuff]

I think I read today that there will be an 8 CD version, presumably at a significantly lower price point.  Still no more than a maybe for me - I have the 3 CD version, not sure how much I'm getting out of alternate versions, although I wouldn't put too much weight on 'rejected' notations made in the context of the original release intentions and reality.

[Rooster_Ties]

I’d be tempted by a price point of about $80 or so ($10/disc) — or maybe even $88 ($11/disc)

But a full Mosaic-like price of $16/disc (i.e. $128 total)... would be a big “no” for me, I’m afraid.

I’ve had the 3 CD set for 20-ish years, and I’m not sure I really need all that much more, though I do love Lee’s playing in his later years.

A set with minimalistic packaging wouldn’t bother me, and a corresponding lower price would seem appropriate.

[jcam_44]

22 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I’d be tempted by a price point of about $80 or so ($10/disc) — or maybe even $88 ($11/disc)

But a full Mosaic-like price of $16/disc (i.e. $128 total)... would be a big “no” for me, I’m afraid.

I’ve had the 3 CD set for 20-ish years, and I’m not sure I really need all that much more, though I do love Lee’s playing in his later years.

A set with minimalistic packaging wouldn’t bother me, and a corresponding lower price would seem appropriate.

I fear if the "Jazz Detective" is involved thats not an option. 

[soulpope]

4 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I’d be tempted by a price point of about $80 or so ($10/disc) — or maybe even $88 ($11/disc)

But a full Mosaic-like price of $16/disc (i.e. $128 total)... would be a big “no” for me, I’m afraid.

I’ve had the 3 CD set for 20-ish years, and I’m not sure I really need all that much more, though I do love Lee’s playing in his later years.

A set with minimalistic packaging wouldn’t bother me, and a corresponding lower price would seem appropriate.

For me the best tracks were chosen for the original vinyl release .... which was augmented by the 3CD Set .... therefore don't expect being a buyer here ..

[david weiss]

5 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I’d be tempted by a price point of about $80 or so ($10/disc) — or maybe even $88 ($11/disc)

But a full Mosaic-like price of $16/disc (i.e. $128 total)... would be a big “no” for me, I’m afraid.

I’ve had the 3 CD set for 20-ish years, and I’m not sure I really need all that much more, though I do love Lee’s playing in his later years.

A set with minimalistic packaging wouldn’t bother me, and a corresponding lower price would seem appropriate.

I remember a discussion about this but don't remember the details unfortunately. Apparently I don't pay attention all the time and this was an area that didn't concern my work. I do remember them saying the CD box was going to have a very reasonable price point. Certainly not a Mosaic like price. Somehow $75 is sticking in my head but don't take that to the bank....

4 hours ago, jcam_44 said:

I fear if the "Jazz Detective" is involved thats not an option. 

I believe this will be Blue Note's decision. 

[Dan Gould]

3 hours ago, david weiss said:

I remember a discussion about this but don't remember the details unfortunately. Apparently I don't pay attention all the time and this was an area that didn't concern my work. I do remember them saying the CD box was going to have a very reasonable price point. Certainly not a Mosaic like price. Somehow $75 is sticking in my head but don't take that to the bank....

I believe this will be Blue Note's decision. 

OTOH David BN did "hire" him. It would be a BN decision either way and certainly with his input. (I put hire in scare quotes because to date, I don't know that we have any evidence via a release that he's done a damn thing yet.)

[Dan Gould]

I said this before in the other thread, but there's no way I am going to be in for 8 discs with so many performances of the same tunes, when I have the three disc BN and the Fresh Sounds two discs from the same time frame.  And many of you knew me as Mogie Man at the old BNBB.

[Rooster_Ties]

2 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

...when I have the three disc BN and the Fresh Sounds two discs from the same time frame.

I’m sort of in the same boat, similar outlook. But another way I’m looking at it is that I could dump the Fresh Sounds discs (I’ve just got burns of those, albeit with color scans of the covers that a buddy of mine  made for me - that I wouldn’t have bothered with, but he insisted).

But I’ll have to look and see if “The Chief” appeared in any of the unreleased BN material — I’m guessing not, or otherwise it would have been included in the 3cd set — so maybe I’d have keep the FS burns after all, just for that.

$75 would be a lot easier to justify, than $128. I’d also probably prefer cardboard sleeves for each disk, so the whole thing doesn’t take up any more space than the 3cd set — just package them all in a little box like the re-reissue of the Woody Shaw CBS stuff (the one years after the Mosaic).

Over $100, and I’m sure I’d sleep on it for a few years until I could find a cheaper used copy, or else do without. But $75 I probably couldn’t resist for too long.

[Dan Gould]

9 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I’m sort of in the same boat, similar outlook. But another way I’m looking at it is that I could dump the Fresh Sounds discs

Wasn't it supposed to be established that the Fresh Sounds was a different location than the Lighthouse, so different performances than what was recorded by BN? Then I don't think you want to pitch your copy of that release.

If it turns out that the Fresh Sounds recording will be duplicated in this too-much-of-a-good-thing release, that's even more reason to ignore this one. 

[sidewinder]

Good as the sound of the 3CD Blue Note Box was/is, things have moved on since then. This set will be a great temptation when it sails into view - and I suspect not just to me. 

The Fresh Sound material sounds to me, sonically, like a total different location to the ‘Lighhouse’ - presumably the ‘Both/And’.

With regard to the vinyl version - I hope/wish they would use London-based Gearbox in the same manner as for that Universal Tubby Hayes set. I guess it would likely be RTI or Optimal though.

Edited December 21, 2020 by sidewinder

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

Wasn't it supposed to be established that the Fresh Sounds was a different location than the Lighthouse, so different performances than what was recorded by BN? Then I don't think you want to pitch your copy of that release.

If it turns out that the Fresh Sounds recording will be duplicated in this too-much-of-a-good-thing release, that's even more reason to ignore this one. 

I’m assuming the Fresh Sound is from another venue entirely, and the sound quality - while ok - isn’t as good as the Blue Note.

If I do eventually get the 8cd, I’d have no need for the Fresh Sound (even if it was from a different venue entirely) — except for one little hitch, that being *IF* a live version of “The Chief” is only represented on the Fresh Sound (and nowhere to be found on the 8cd).

[CJ Shearn]

I think there is quite a bit of irony here that some people won't be buying this set because if we look at say Trane's Village Vanguard or Miles' Plugged Nickel a lot of the same music is repeated from set to set yet the music is vastly different.  If there is too much redundancy in the Lighthouse material, I will hold onto the 3 disc set as a sort of best of distillation

[jazzbo]

I'm happy to hear a cd set is planned. I'm in for that.

[JSngry]

4 minutes ago, CJ Shearn said:

I think there is quite a bit of irony here that some people won't be buying this set because if we look at say Trane's Village Vanguard or Miles' Plugged Nickel a lot of the same music is repeated from set to set yet the music is vastly different. 

It's 2021...or will be when this comes out.

[Dan Gould]

29 minutes ago, CJ Shearn said:

I think there is quite a bit of irony here that some people won't be buying this set because if we look at say Trane's Village Vanguard or Miles' Plugged Nickel a lot of the same music is repeated from set to set yet the music is vastly different.  If there is too much redundancy in the Lighthouse material, I will hold onto the 3 disc set as a sort of best of distillation

Well not to out myself but I have neither of the box sets you mention.

I just find it a bit of major overkill, and very disappointing in the context of our expectation that Zev was being brought in for new BN issues of archival material by their contracted musicians, not a clear-out-the-vault exercise to extract money from rabid vinyl fans.

I for one am very satisfied with whatever takes were deemed "best" when they issued the three disc box 20 or so years ago. 

[JSngry]

9 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

I for one am very satisfied with whatever takes were deemed "best" when they issued the three disc box 20 or so years ago. 

How well did that set sell? Was it in print for a long-enough time to reach its audience?

Lee/Lighthouse is great music, but Trane/Vanguard or Miles/Plugged Nickel it's not, at least in terms of stuff that is going to have deep implications 50+ years later. Deep pleasure, sure. But pleasure alone is not why you do a "full on" 12 LP/8 CD set of mostly unreleased material, is it?

I don't know...part of me thinks I will want this and will get it, part of me thinks I will want it but leave it alone until a used copy comes along, part of me thinks that even if I do want it and do get it, I'll never listen to it at all, or not more than once or twice, and still another part of me thinks that it's too far in the rear-view mirror now for me to think too much about it at all.

Now, the Lee/Billy band...too bad there's not this much of THAT...but how much of it could there be, do we have Lee's itinerary on file any where?

[mjzee]

I have an mp3 copy of the 3-CD set, and that's more than enough for me.  Morgan's shift to long-form modal franticness didn't excite me.

In terms of "what might have been," I'm more intrigued by Morgan's forays into keyboard-based soul jazz in his last years, backing Lonnie Smith, Reuben Wilson, Harold Mabern, and Charles Earland.  I wish he could have developed that further. 

[bertrand]

1) The Fresh Sound is from the Both/And. If you remember, a gentleman posted a few years ago that he had tapes from that gig. The sound was better and I think there were some other tracks not on the FS.

2) I do not believe The Chief was performed during the Lighthouse residency, nor was Rakin' and Scrapin'. The discography above confirms my memory.

3) The 'detective' was involved in the Art Blakey Just Cooolin' release, I think that's it so far. That was not a new discovery, just a rethinking.

Now, the Lee/Billy band...too bad there's not this much of THAT...but how much of it could there be, do we have Lee's itinerary on file any where?

There is a very distorted recording from Virginia in November 1971, with Higgins instead of Waits. Probably not releasable.

[david weiss]

7 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Wasn't it supposed to be established that the Fresh Sounds was a different location than the Lighthouse, so different performances than what was recorded by BN? Then I don't think you want to pitch your copy of that release.

If it turns out that the Fresh Sounds recording will be duplicated in this too-much-of-a-good-thing release, that's even more reason to ignore this one. 

The Fresh Sound stuff has definitely been confirmed as coming from the Both/And and there is a few more tracks from these shows that were not on the Fresh Sound release. 

7 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Good as the sound of the 3CD Blue Note Box was/is, things have moved on since then. This set will be a great temptation when it sails into view - and I suspect not just to me. 

The Fresh Sound material sounds to me, sonically, like a total different location to the ‘Lighhouse’ - presumably the ‘Both/And’.

With regard to the vinyl version - I hope/wish they would use London-based Gearbox in the same manner as for that Universal Tubby Hayes set. I guess it would likely be RTI or Optimal though.

I thought the sound on the 3 CD set was good but I always disagreed with Belden about the sound. He favored a more clean, treble heavy sound and I liked a little more warmth and body. It was his baby. This is just a personal opinion but I think the sound on this upcoming set is much better. I believe the vinyl was done by RTI.

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

How well did that set sell? Was it in print for a long-enough time to reach its audience?

Lee/Lighthouse is great music, but Trane/Vanguard or Miles/Plugged Nickel it's not, at least in terms of stuff that is going to have deep implications 50+ years later. Deep pleasure, sure. But pleasure alone is not why you do a "full on" 12 LP/8 CD set of mostly unreleased material, is it?

I don't know...part of me thinks I will want this and will get it, part of me thinks I will want it but leave it alone until a used copy comes along, part of me thinks that even if I do want it and do get it, I'll never listen to it at all, or not more than once or twice, and still another part of me thinks that it's too far in the rear-view mirror now for me to think too much about it at all.

Now, the Lee/Billy band...too bad there's not this much of THAT...but how much of it could there be, do we have Lee's itinerary on file any where?

I don't know numbers of course but my impression was that the 3 CD set did well and was in print for a decent amount of time. 

I agree that this music might not be at a Miles/Plugged Nickel or Coltrane/Vanguard level of importance but perhaps it is the closet thing we still have documented?

It is a great slice of the era. One of the best working bands of that era in the middle of an extended run clicking on all cylinders. It's exciting stuff.

I'm not the one that makes decisions about what to release but I think it is worthy of release and is important stuff in it's own right. 

It's also well recorded and can really bring you right into the room. I like that personally plus I'm happy with more Lee Morgan.

It is also remarkably consistent at a high level throughout. 

[sidewinder]

Hi David - Thank you for your confirmation of the Both/And and the sonics for the forthcoming set. Very much looking forward to it !

The 3CD set came out in 1996 I think, I bought mine at the time of release (and was overjoyed when it came out). I remember seeing it for sale well into the early 2000s so it had a decent run.

Edited December 21, 2020 by sidewinder

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, david weiss said:

I thought the sound on the 3 CD set was good but I always disagreed with Belden about the sound. He favored a more clean, treble heavy sound and I liked a little more warmth and body. It was his baby.

Bob could make some funny choices...not bad ones, mind you, just funny.

I remember hearing the CD of Booker and Brass for the first time and wondering WTF?????

Oh, ok, Bob took ALL the reverb out. ALL of it.

A funny choice indeed.