The Worst Masterpiece: "Rhapsody in Blue" at 100, by Ethan Iverson

[AllenLowe]

On 1/30/2024 at 2:16 PM, danasgoodstuff said:

Didn't some of the other songwriters of Gershwin's time & place try their hands at writing extended pieces of various sorts?  Maybe instead of putting down RiB a better argument would be to throw light on some of those?  Any thoughts on that?

there is a whole book somewhere of jazz-types experimenting with long forms in those days, but unfortunately I have forgotten the title; but check out Nat Shilkret, who was interesting:

https://www.amazon.com/Symphonic-Jazz-Carpenter/dp/B00006RHPG

 

here's the book:

https://www.amazon.com/Ellington-Uptown-Johnson-Concert-Perspectives/dp/0472033166/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1X6WL3K7X58V3&keywords=ellington+uptown&qid=1706839470&s=books&sprefix=ellington+uptown%2Cstripbooks%2C71&sr=1-1

Edited February 2, 2024 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

I've recently gotten 2 CDs of James P. Johnson's orchestral compositions. They're always interesting, and often enough more. And also often enough...not so much. But maybe some of that is the orchestras' fault. Maybe 

Never, though, are they cheesy! 

[danasgoodstuff]

18 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

there is a whole book somewhere of jazz-types experimenting with long forms in those days, but unfortunately I have forgotten the title; but check out Nat Shilkret, who was interesting:

https://www.amazon.com/Symphonic-Jazz-Carpenter/dp/B00006RHPG

 

here's the book:

https://www.amazon.com/Ellington-Uptown-Johnson-Concert-Perspectives/dp/0472033166/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1X6WL3K7X58V3&keywords=ellington+uptown&qid=1706839470&s=books&sprefix=ellington+uptown%2Cstripbooks%2C71&sr=1-1

Thanks, I'll have to check that out.  I was thinking more that someone in the Porter/Arlen/Rodgers axis had tried their hand a longform composition, but I could be mis-remembering.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Scott Joplin wrote at least one opera, Treemonisha, and I seem to remember Eubie Blake had some big project too.  The curious thing is ragtime, blues and jazz players often seemed to want the validation from the musical powers-that-were that they thought writing in longer European musical forms would garner.  This was not their everyday music or their forte, really, but apparently they craved respect and recognition and this is one path they saw to those.  For the most part it never seemed to work.  Didn't James P. Johnson subtitle his big project "A Negro Rhapsody" or something like that?  After Gershwin, I suppose.

Somebody very kindly posted a clip with Gershwin playing his original arrangement on piano roll and I listened to that as well as a few other renderings, since this discussion came up.  I haven't listened to RiB in years and now I remember why I liked it so much originally.  He takes a very few melodic themes and then sort of runs the changes on them - as you might expect in classical music - but he keeps playing the same or slightly altered strings of the same notes while the chord, and thus the mood and emotion, keeps changing underneath.  So there is this interesting sense of repetition of the same line on top of changes.  As though he is showing you: look how different these same notes can seem with a different background.

Edited February 2, 2024 by Stompin at the Savoy

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Thanks, I'll have to check that out.  I was thinking more that someone in the Porter/Arlen/Rodgers axis had tried their hand a longform composition, but I could be mis-remembering.

Vernon Duke wrote a fair amount of pretty good stuff as Vladimir Dukelsky, but he was a bit younger than Gershwin.

and performed

 

1 hour ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Didn't James P. Johnson subtitle his big project "A Negro Rhapsody" or something like that?  After Gershwin, I suppose.

did Gershwin invent the word "Rhapsody"?

And there was a bit of a body of work by JPJ in this idiom, not just one "big project".

[mikeweil]

I think these categories  - in case they already were in use - were not taken that seriously by musicians. I think they never were - I know comprarable examples in Baroque etc times. Much of the problem comes from the (unnecessary?) desire to make judgements, evaluations and the like. Are critics always musicians that kind of didn't find their way into music mnaking?

[danasgoodstuff]

24 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Vernon Duke wrote a fair amount of pretty good stuff as Vladimir Dukelsky, but he was a bit younger than Gershwin.

and performed

 

did Gershwin invent the word "Rhapsody"?

And there was a bit of a body of work by JPJ in this idiom, not just one "big project".

Thanx!

[JSngry]

Keep in mind that Duke was already a composer of some note in Russia before coming here and starting his new career. So he was already knowing that world first.

But he kept it good, no matter what world he was in! No dumbing down, no smarting up. 

[Teasing the Korean]

On 2/2/2024 at 5:33 PM, JSngry said:

Keep in mind that Duke was already a composer of some note in Russia before coming here and starting his new career. So he was already knowing that world first.

But he kept it good, no matter what world he was in! No dumbing down, no smarting up. 

Vernon Duke studied the Schillinger System when he came to the U.S.  Gershwin also studied the Schillinger System.

Here is a gorgeous Vernon Duke instrumental composition, though it is not extended.  

 

Edited February 4, 2024 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

B. B. King also studied the Schillinger system. 

[Teasing the Korean]

12 minutes ago, JSngry said:

B. B. King also studied the Schillinger system. 

Tito Puente also.  Tito was planning to become a Schillinger teacher, but  accidentally became a professional musician instead! 🤪

[Д.Д.]

On 2/2/2024 at 11:33 PM, JSngry said:

Keep in mind that Duke was already a composer of some note in Russia before coming here and starting his new career. So he was already knowing that world first.

He was not, he left Russia still a teenager. He was Dyagilev's protege in Paris (where he spent some time already after having settled in the US), if this is what you mean by "Russia". Dyagilev commissioned a ballet to Duke (Vladimir Dukelsky then) in 1920s. It was not successful for whatever reason - it is really good:

Prokofiev  - who was in Paris at the time as well - was apparently very supportive and complimentary of the music (maybe because it sounded a lot like his own). They considered each other friends and maintained correspondence for many years afterwards when Prokofiev already returned to the USSR (in one letter Prokofiev called Dukelsky a prostitute for writing popular music for money. Jealousy, I guess). Dukelsky met Stravinsky in Paris as well, but I have not read anything specific about their relationship or about Stravinsky's opinion of Dukelsky's music.

Dukelsky was a really skilled composer, and what (little) I heard of Gershwin is not anywhere near when it comes to "serious music" (apologies for the unfortunate term). 

Back to Gershwin - it was apparently he who advised Dukelsky to change his name in the US.    

 

        

Edited February 4, 2024 by Д.Д.

[JSngry]

"of some note" is meant that he was known and respected for the level he was at.

This is opposed to "of some renown", which I made it a point to not say. 

[Д.Д.]

12 minutes ago, JSngry said:

"of some note" is meant that he was known and respected for the level he was at.

This is opposed to "of some renown", which I made it a point to not say. 

Сome on, please... He was absolutely not known in Russia before he left. He started studying in Kyiv conservatory in 1918 (at the age of 15) and he left Russia (Ukraine Republic, to be exact, it was not absorbed into USSR yet) in 1919 arriving in the US in 1921 at the age of 18.   

Edited February 4, 2024 by Д.Д.

[JSngry]

Ok then, I misread the Wikipedia article and other past browsings. My bad then. 

[Brad]

John McWhorter, who is a Professor at Columbia and a columnist at the NYT came out with a column today.

No, Rhapsody Blue is Not the Worst

Ethan Iverson also weighed in on McWhorter’s column.

https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-362-there-is-nothing-more-dreadful?r=b9oem&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

[Stompin at the Savoy]

2 hours ago, Brad said:

John McWhorter, who is a Professor at Columbia and a columnist at the NYT came out with a column today.

No, Rhapsody Blue is Not the Worst

Ethan Iverson also weighed in on McWhorter’s column.

https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-362-there-is-nothing-more-dreadful?r=b9oem&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

I am shocked that I find myself agreeing with McWhorter, who often comes up with rather right-leaning um, stuff.  Iverson's reply was ill-advised, IMO.

Edited February 8, 2024 by Stompin at the Savoy

[GA Russell]

Out Feb. 12, this Tuesday.

[Dub Modal]

Looks like the North Carolina Symphony didn’t get the memo

 

https://www.ncsymphony.org/events/540/rhapsody-in-blue/

 

[JSngry]

6 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Looks like the North Carolina Symphony didn’t get the memo

 

https://www.ncsymphony.org/events/540/rhapsody-in-blue/

 

About This Performance

Milhaud: The Creation of the World
Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue
Copland: Appalachian Spring
Copland: Four Dance Episodes from Rodeo

This program is part of the "Cliches For the Clueless" series, correct?

[Dub Modal]

43 minutes ago, JSngry said:

About This Performance

Milhaud: The Creation of the World
Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue
Copland: Appalachian Spring
Copland: Four Dance Episodes from Rodeo

This program is part of the "Cliches For the Clueless" series, correct?

lol don’t get me started on the NC Symphony 

[medjuck]

A non-music critic response: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-02-14/rhapsody-in-blue-100th-anniversary

If you scroll down to the bottom of the column there's a good description of the writer's qualifications. 

 

Edited February 20, 2024 by medjuck

[AllenLowe]

this is getting silly - the LA Times takes the tack that the piece was "aspirational," as though that has anything to do with whether Rhapsody is worthwhile or not. Ethan is right - Rhapsody is a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface. I don't care how ambitious Gershwin was; Trump is ambitious. That does not mean anything good.

[JSngry]

14 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

Ethan is right - Rhapsody is a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface.

Alpha and Omega, right there.

All this other stuff is criticspeak of varying relevance, but in light of this fundamental truth, too much icing on a really bad cake. 

[medjuck]

3 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

this is getting silly - the LA Times takes the tack that the piece was "aspirational," as though that has anything to do with whether Rhapsody is worthwhile or not. Ethan is right - Rhapsody is a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface. I don't care how ambitious Gershwin was; Trump is ambitious. That does not mean anything good.

It's not the LA Times. It's a guy who who usually writes  about  Latino life saying what it means to him.   I think it's interesting to hear from a non-musician non-white.