Steve Coleman & #MeToo Moment in Jazz

[bertrand]

Oh, we are making a list of rock songs about underage girls now? There are many.

[mjzee]

I’ll miss Captain Howdy’s posts, and can’t help but wonder whether tensions could have been defused a bit more amicably.

[JSngry]

14 minutes ago, mjzee said:

I’ll miss Captain Howdy’s posts, and can’t help but wonder whether tensions could have been defused a bit more amicably.

Oh, it very much could have been:

Ok, Louis CK commentary removed, start your own thread about it.

And then he asked to be deactivated. So, ok. No interest in starting a different conversation, his call, and his wishes were respected.

It's all there, except for the Louis CK stuff which was deleted in hopes of steering the thread back on course. And full disclosure - I engaged in the Louis CK talk. But it didn't level off it kept coming and it kept getting worse. So I took it out, all of it, his, mine, and everybody's.

Oh, just to be clear - this is not a thread to get all wide open about #MeToo, pro or con. This thread is about Steve Coleman and Maria Grand, more or less specifically.

And Gary Puckett, because, you know, that guy is still gigging, and I assume, still singing those songs, ok Boomers! LOL

[JSngry]

"Lady Willpower" was pretty creepy too.

Lady Willpower, it's now or never
Give your love to me and I'll shower
Your heart with tenderness endlessly

 

I know you want to see me but you're afraid
Of what I might have on my mind
One thing you can be sure of
I'll take good care of your love
If you will let me give you mine

 

Lady Willpower, it's now or never
Give your love to me and I'll shower
Your heart with tenderness endlessly

 

Did no one ever tell you the facts of life
Well there's so much you have to learn
And I would gladly teach you
If I could only reach you
And get your lovin' in return

 

Lady Willpower, it's now or never
Give your love to me and I'll shower
Your heart with tenderness endlessly

 

Full lyrics to Young Girl:

 

Young girl
Get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run, girl
You're much too young, girl

With all the charms of a woman
You've kept the secret of your youth
You led me to believe you're old enough
To give me Love
And now it hurts to know the truth

Whoa, oh, oh, young girl
Get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run, girl
You're much too young, girl

Beneath your perfume and make-up
You're just a baby in disguise
And though you know that it's wrong to be
Alone with me
That come on look is in your eyes

Whoa, oh, oh, young girl
Get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run, girl
You're much too young, girl

So hurry home to your mama
I'm sure she wonders where you are
Get out of here before I have the time
To change my mind
'Cause I'm afraid we'll go too far

 

Sticking with creepy here. Maybe not pedophillic (and that's a very generous "maybe not"), just creepy.

[danasgoodstuff]

8 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

@danasgoodstuff

Did you read anything about the law that Bresna referenced? It makes it pretty clear that the revision to the existing law was crucial, and that this was a major advance in "free speech" rights as interpreted. And by the way, her claims CAN BE FALSE. There is no 'proof' whatsoever about the truth of her claims, other than sex having occurred after she turned 18. This was most certainly not a case of "the truth is an absolute defense", like, at all.

It comes down to, you can give your opinion in a public space, about "abuse" and "grooming" and "no sex, no work", with the intention of harming him, and get away with it ... simply because its your opinion that you were "groomed" and "abused" and that Coleman not hiring her for a gig was due to "not giving him what he wanted sexually".

Coleman v. Grand, 18-cv-5663 (ENV) (RLM) | Casetext Search + Citator   full text of the federal district court's opinion appears here.  Well worth reading.  While there is a full discussion of recent New York law as it applies to the case, the court makes clear that it is an alternative grounds for disposition and that quite apart from it they would grant summary judgement (to both parties) on the traditional, common law (as interpreted in light of the First Amendment) fact/opinion distinction.  I find the court's discussion of this clear, reasonable, and not at all novel or radical.  YMMV.

[JSngry]

did I read something about how the ruling told Coleman that his evidence was not disputed, but it didn't matter because his case was not about that?

If that's true, what kind of a lawyer did he have guiding him?

Stock up!

[Dan Gould]

26 minutes ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Coleman v. Grand, 18-cv-5663 (ENV) (RLM) | Casetext Search + Citator   full text of the federal district court's opinion appears here.  Well worth reading.  While there is a full discussion of recent New York law as it applies to the case, the court makes clear that it is an alternative grounds for disposition and that quite apart from it they would grant summary judgement (to both parties) on the traditional, common law (as interpreted in light of the First Amendment) fact/opinion distinction.  I find the court's discussion of this clear, reasonable, and not at all novel or radical.  YMMV.

Thank you for the link. 

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, mjzee said:

I’ll miss Captain Howdy’s posts, and can’t help but wonder whether tensions could have been defused a bit more amicably.

Less nasty misogyny on here is a good thing.

[danasgoodstuff]

4 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

Thank you for the link. 

You're welcome.  Going to primary sources is particularly important here.  Non-specialist reporting on court cases tends to round things off a bit, to say the least.  Thank you for pushing me to dig this up and read it.  Some very funny judicial choices o language here, e.g. 'flip side'.  Probably was the clerk having fun.

Edited June 3, 2021 by danasgoodstuff

[Guy Berger]

More broadly - hopefully we (the people in the jazz field, both fans and “producers”) will have a broader conversation about “bad behavior” by influential jazz individuals toward both younger and women industry participants.  I am sure there is much more egregious behavior than what Coleman did that’s basically swept under the rug.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Guy Berger

[bertrand]

I want to find out more about Leonard Feather's interaction with all those female artists who he briefly promoted before moving on...

[JSngry]

I'm, like, let's get young women in general to build up the inner core to call bullshit when it happens, not after it happens. And maybe even how to have the smarts (and support systems), to not get in so many of these bullshit situations to begin with. This slave mentality of "oh, what can I do?!?!?!?!" can only be broken by refusing to play, at any level, in any form. You can start by learning what's bullshit and then refusing to so much as entertain the notion, that's what you can do. I get that the culture is against you to do that, but fuck the culture. Fuck. The. Culture.

I do not fear stronger, more empowered, women in the least. This toxic masculinity shit is real and it's getting worse. Women can shut that shit down by demanding better. Insisting on better. And not settling for less.

And no man need fear emasculation or whatever testicular insecurity is in the air right now. If they their game, they up our game, not to rise above but to rise even. Heterosexuality will always ensure mating, but not good, healthy partnerships. We want both (and if you're not heterosexual, you probably want that as well, I think that's basically what most humans want, right?). Let the natural slaves do their thing, but do not let it be imprinted on our young people that this is who you are born to be, that this is the default position, to be a victim or to be a slayer.

Fewer victims, more standing on your own two feet with everybody else who is doing the same..

[Larry Kart]

44 minutes ago, bertrand said:

I want to find out more about Leonard Feather's interaction with all those female artists who he briefly promoted before moving on...

No you don't, unless you have a strong stomach. 

[bertrand]

59 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I'm, like, let's get young women in general to build up the inner core to call bullshit when it happens, not after it happens. And maybe even how to have the smarts (and support systems), to not get in so many of these bullshit situations to begin with. This slave mentality of "oh, what can I do?!?!?!?!" can only be broken by refusing to play, at any level, in any form. You can start by learning what's bullshit and then refusing to so much as entertain the notion, that's what you can do. I get that the culture is against you to do that, but fuck the culture. Fuck. The. Culture.

I do not fear stronger, more empowered, women in the least. This toxic masculinity shit is real and it's getting worse. Women can shut that shit down by demanding better. Insisting on better. And not settling for less.

And no man need fear emasculation or whatever testicular insecurity is in the air right now. If they their game, they up our game, not to rise above but to rise even. Heterosexuality will always ensure mating, but not good, healthy partnerships. We want both (and if you're not heterosexual, you probably want that as well, I think that's basically what most humans want, right?). Let the natural slaves do their thing, but do not let it be imprinted on our young people that this is who you are born to be, that this is the default position, to be a victim or to be a slayer.

Fewer victims, more standing on your own two feet with everybody else who is doing the same..

They are definitely starting to stand up against the BS.

20 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

No you don't, unless you have a strong stomach. 

I already know of one documented case of harassment which essentially ended the artist's career after he turned his back on her. Sounds like there is more to the story. Is it not time to get the record straight? The Harvey Weinstein anology may be more applicable here. Further research is needed...

Edited June 3, 2021 by bertrand

[Dub Modal]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

In a time when pretty much everything seemed fair game, those two songs stood out as "well, maybe not EVERYTHING"...but who was buying those records? And where are they now?

Man, I didn't recognize the name or those lyrics at first, but now I do and can confirm he still very much has an audience among the southeastern boating class. Radio play and all, usually mixed in with the beach music tunes. 

[Larry Kart]

If you're thinking of Jutta Hipp, Bertrand, you're on target. But Jutta is no more, as is Feather, and his reputation, for this and other reasons. is tarred. OTOH, a post about Hipp on Marc Myers Jazz Wax site, citing a woman who has extensively researched Hipp's life, indicates that there were more reasons for the demise of Hipp's musical career than anything that Feather did or might have done. 

[JSngry]

Listen to this motherfucker, you think he's all like, stay pure girl, but then, the VERY last line, it's pretty much, I'm the one who loves you more, which of course means, you should give in to me. That's one EVIL motherfucker.

It's one thing if these songs were aimed ad adults, I men, everybody loves a good flirt, a good teas, and yes, anybody can play. But, you know, I know who was listening to this crap, it's wasn't adults, and it wasn't hippiechicks, it was young girls who were experiencing the first rushes of sexuality and just looking for any kind of a crush. I would hear these girls at church youth groups talking in the "rap sessions" about "going all the way, is it really THAT bad, I mean, I know I shouldn't, stuff like that. And then one day, little girl gone off to have her baby or some such. One by one, not in any particular order, but you knew there was never going to be a last one.

And oh btw - the only ones who didn't go off, the ones who got the guy to marry them were not the white girls. Gerome, Harry, y'all manned up. The rest of you punks, hell, at my last high school reunion, about 10 or so years ago, apparently there was debate about some of the girls wanted to invite this one guy who moved away in 9th grade but apparently fucked them all before he did. They're STILL wanting to see him again,. married women (some more than a few times), 2-3 of them grandmas. And apparently they invited him but he couldn't come becaus he was in rehab or some shit, I don't know. Damage breed damage unless and until the chain gets broken. Not weakened, BROKEN.

It's not like we don't have enough damaged good wandering the earth as it is. We continue to breed, we continue to send them out there. Goddamit - stop fucking these kids up before they even get started. After it happens is too late.

Maria Grand claims that she got abused/seduced at age 15. What made her think that that was a good idea, to keep going like that? Because that's what you have to do to learn how to play? FUCK NO - you learn how to play by learning how to play. Period. Because getting "freed up" is what you gotta do to learn how to play jazz? Bullshit. FREE YOUR MIND AND YOUR ASS WILL FOLLOW. Not the other way around.

Check out Joanie Sommers, empowering as fuck until you get to the bridge, and, ok "your dreams" are about landing your dream guy... WTF?!?!?!?!? I mean, GREAT record. but...no, Joanie, no. You knew better than this. Knew it them, I'm sure, you had a career, you knew better.

I know, in isolation, harmless fun. But this isolation, where there is not a cumulative indoctrination...where is that isolation, where does it live?

We gotta do better, y'all.

[bertrand]

30 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

If you're thinking of Jutta Hipp, Bertrand, you're on target. But Jutta is no more, as is Feather, and his reputation, for this and other reasons. is tarred. OTOH, a post about Hipp on Marc Myers Jazz Wax site, citing a woman who has extensively researched Hipp's life, indicates that there were more reasons for the demise of Hipp's musical career than anything that Feather did or might have done. 

Yes, I am thinking of Jutta. Was the anecdote in question mentioned on Jazzwax? I wasn't sure if the person, who is Hipp's biographer and a good friend of mine, had told the story to many people. On the other hand, she told the story in a Public Forum, it was not in a private conversation.

Jutta certainly had other things going on, but would she have stayed in music had Feather not abused his position and destroyed her reputation? Perhaps. Father's actions did not help her life or career.

Assuming there is more ugliness on Feather that could surface, I am not convinced that his being deceased changes anything. He is not there to defend himself, granted, but if it turns out there was a systematic pattern which resulted in many careers being ruined, I think it is fair that it be known. But I have no information beyond the Jutta incident, so I will sit back and wait.

[Larry Kart]

18 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Yes, I am thinking of Jutta. Was the anecdote in question mentioned on Jazzwax? I wasn't sure if the person, who is Hipp's biographer and a good friend of mine, had told the story to many people. On the other hand, she told the story in a Public Forum, it was not in a private conversation.

Jutta certainly had other things going on, but would she have stayed in music had Feather not abused his position and destroyed her reputation? Perhaps. Father's actions did not help her life or career.

Assuming there is more ugliness on Feather that could surface, I am not convinced that his being deceased changes anything. He is not there to defend himself, granted, but if it turns out there was a systematic pattern which resulted in many careers being ruined, I think it is fair that it be known. But I have no information beyond the Jutta incident, so I will sit back and wait.

I'm not familiar with that anecdote. As for Feather, I hold no brief for the man. The one glancing encounter I had with him -- not face to face but in a journalistic-professional matter that involved me -- told me all I needed to know about his lack of ethics.

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

I'm not familiar with that anecdote. As for Feather, I hold no brief for the man. The one glancing encounter I had with him -- not face to face but in a journalistic-professional matter that involved me -- told me all I needed to know about his lack of ethics.

So I may not find too many who knew him who will root for him? The first thing I knew about him is that he always pushed his own originals onto artists whose sessions he produced. Highly unethical right there. But if he harassed female artists, that is much worse.  

[Big Beat Steve]

3 hours ago, bertrand said:

So I may not find too many who knew him who will root for him? The first thing I knew about him is that he always pushed his own originals onto artists whose sessions he produced. Highly unethical right there. But if he harassed female artists, that is much worse.  

That game can continue elsewhere among the VERY famous now-deceased if you insist.

Check out this post by Chris Albertson of 15 Dec. 2004 here: (well, I think you probably remember it anyway)

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Big Beat Steve

[Gheorghe]

10 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

If you're thinking of Jutta Hipp, Bertrand, you're on target. But Jutta is no more, as is Feather, and his reputation, for this and other reasons. is tarred. OTOH, a post about Hipp on Marc Myers Jazz Wax site, citing a woman who has extensively researched Hipp's life, indicates that there were more reasons for the demise of Hipp's musical career than anything that Feather did or might have done. 

Well, I have Jutta Hipp´s two trio recordings from the Hickory House and the one with Zoot Sims, very nice, she could play, but nothing revolutionary. I read an interview with her in the 80´s when she wasn´t active anymore and when she was asked about her time in Europ with Hans Koller she said she doesn´t like that kind of music anymore. 

I have read those rumours with Leonard Feather. But you mention there were other reasons for the demise of Hipp´s musical career. What reasons was it. Why did she disappear from the scene. I heard, she was quite struggling for living. She could have returned to Europe to continue her career. Really a mistery to me. 

[sidewinder]

3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

That game can continue elsewhere among the VERY famous now-deceased if you insist.

Check out this post by Chris Albertson of 15 Dec. 2004 here: (well, I think you probably remember it anyway)

 

 

I’d completely forgotten about this thread but the Val Wilmer incident at the London JATP concert/ Jazz 625 and the comments from christiern are a horror story.

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I have read those rumours with Leonard Feather. But you mention there were other reasons for the demise of Hipp´s musical career. What reasons was it. Why did she disappear from the scene. I heard, she was quite struggling for living. She could have returned to Europe to continue her career. Really a mistery to me. 

Wasn’t she doing seamstress work to get by in those later years? (located in Queens I think). Also recall hearing that BN tracked her down to pay overdue royalties.

Edited June 4, 2021 by sidewinder

[felser]

21 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

 

Anyone pay attention to lyrics? It's a story about a guy misled by a girl about her age, and when he finds out he tells her to go home.

With all the charms of a woman
You've kept the secret of your youth
You led me to believe you're old enough
To give me love
And now it hurts to know the truth

[Chorus]
Whoa, oh, oh, young girl
Get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run, girl
You're much too young, girl
 

About the only creepy thing is that he implies that if she doesn't go home he may give in and "change my mind".

I knew this one what is the other offensive hit he had?

[bertrand]

3 hours ago, sidewinder said:

I’d completely forgotten about this thread but the Val Wilmer incident at the London JATP concert/ Jazz 625 and the comments from christiern are a horror story.

Wasn’t she doing seamstress work to get by in those later years? (located in Queens I think). Also recall hearing that BN tracked her down to pay overdue royalties.

Yes, all this is true.

We are speculating as to what went on in her head, so let me throw out another theory. Perhaps she did not listen to that kind of music anymore because it made her depressed every time she thought of why she quit music. In general terms, imagine this scenario for any female artist. You work hard to learn and perfect your craft, you think you get a break and then everything goes to pieces because you did not agree to sleep with some producer. Not only does he stop championing you, but he goes out of his way to bad mouth you and blacklist you. All he has to do is get the word out to other movers and shakers in the business that you are trouble, and your career is ruined. No one is told that 'you are trouble' is codespeak for 'won't put out'.

This shit has been going on for thousands of years. You can't make it right. But understanding how far reaching the implications of this behavior has been is a good first step. It is exactly what happened with Harvey Weinstein. And they did not get their careers back, did they? When was the last time Annabella Sciorra had a leading role?