bertrand

Just want to make sure it is not too flimsy. It will be in my book cabinet except when I am reading it.

What a laugh it would be if AFM had the contracts yet Verve can't find the tapes of the August 1965 session. I totally agree there are holes in the story and maybe he is holding back. I am slowly digging on Facebook but I have to finesse it. Hopefully he will unwittingly drop a clue. I am still stuck on the fact that he said he wrote 'Patton' but can't say who was sitting behind the organ when he showed up for the tail-end of the session, just in time to pick the song title. Travis: When we did the session the listing of musicians had John Patton on organ. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it. I sold the master to Joe Fields when he was sales manager at Prestige and he put it out on Cobblestone when he went to work for Buddah. I find it interesting that this album has held up as I considered it less than the Blue Notes and the first Verve album. Me: Travis Klein, interesting. Did you attend the recording session at all? It would be ideal to find newspaper ads listing the gig at the Hurricane Lounge, maybe they can help pin down the date and the organist. Although I now believe it is Larry, I would not have questioned it had Ben Dixon not suggested it to me, and more importantly Patton had told his friend it was not him. Dixon was not basing his suggestion on his recollection of the session, I think, but because he listened to the CD. I agree the session holds up well. I prefer it to the Verve session. I wish we could hear the uinssued Verve session... Travis: I don't remember the date in 1965 but every year when that date comes up I post it my page. I came to the session when it was wrapping up. They didn't have a title for one song so I suggested "Iron City" since we were in Pittsburgh. Me: Travis Klein, and the person who got paid for the session was Grant, I guess? It seems the date is 1/18/65, in which case it has to be Patton, Young was still in Paris. And this is on the Pittsburgh Music Hall of Fame page, posted by Travis: On this date in Pittsburgh music history, January 18, 1965, Grant Green with his trio, Ben Dixon on drums and the monster "Big" John Patton on Hammond B-3 organ, appeared at the Hurricane Lounge in the 1500 block of Center Avenue on the Hill. One of the biggest thrills in my life happened that day. Billy Driscoll, who was managing Gene Ludwig at the time, came up to our store at 1811 Center and told me that Grant needed money to cop drugs and he would be willing to trade a recording session for the money. I immediately called down to Gateway Studios, owned by the the Shapiro's of National Record Mart and located above their main location at 234 Forbes Avenue to arrange for the recording session. The songs on the album are "Samba de Orpheus", "Old Man Moses" (Let My People Go), "High Heeled Sneakers", "Motherless Child", "Work Song" and an untitled number that I named "Iron City" and became the name of the album. I never thought that this album was up to level of his work on Blue Note or Verve but the Jazz Traditions channel of Dish Satelite TV (which is programmed by Bo White at Muzak) plays four of the tracks almost daily. It has held up all of these years and contributed to the legacy of Jazz's most under-rated guitarist. Charlie Apicella has even named his group, Iron City, after this album. Treat yourself by checking out some of his other work on You Tube, especially, Idle Moments and Jean de Fleur.

As long as you can confirm the paperback is sturdy enough, I will get that. With the $40 leftover, I can get the French book and the Summer Sessions CD. Cherrypalooza! Now we just need to talk Chuck Nessa into making that Atlantic half-session available for the world to hear in some legal way. My credit card is already pulled out.

You got the paperback for $20?

So there are TWO books on Don Cherry: Don Cherry: Le nomade Multikulti (Univers musical) (French Edition): Francheteau, Jean: 9782343218588: Amazon.com: Books Blank Forms 06: Organic Music Societies – Blank Forms Any reason not to get both? (Yes, I speak French).

Let's pretend it was recorded on 1/18/65 and there was a union contract. Are you suggesting said contract could be located? I am sure it was a scab session, though. I agree that it would have been preferable to use code language, e.g. 'Grant needed some walking around money'. Where he was walking to with the money is none of my business.

It seems like I reactivated two great threads at the same time - sorry about that! Another interesting thing about the photo is the LP on the organ. Did Grant bring a box with him to the gig to sell? Or did the club owner put it there as a prop? Wikipedia says it came out in 1963, so probably not his latest release at the time of the gig...

I see that now - you had mentioned 1961, but the header says 2014. Can you get past 1961 by paying? Maybe they are still digitizing. Another hole in the story, I agree. The Pittsburgh Music Hall Of Fame | Facebook

The idea are coming in my head, but I still need to get organized. I am having trouble with the Downbeat archive. It covers 1937-2014, but there are only two results for Larry Young??? I am guessing Grant. I can try to ask him...

Travis Klein seems to suggest he paid for the tape and sold it later. So I guess he paid the band.

Anything is possible! I still think it is Ben Dixon on drums on Iron City - remember, he and I discussed the session the one time I met him. He said it was not Patton, he never said it was not him on drums. I forget how it came up, maybe I mentioned it because I had just bought the 32Jazz CD. Could the unissued Verve Grant Green session be hiding here? I just sent an inquiry via Ask A Librarian. Dixon must be on the 8/5/65 date since they do his tune 'Fat Judy': Universal Music Group Donates Over 200,000 Master Recordings to the Library of Congress | Library of Congress (loc.gov) I have a lot of ideas about creating a mega jazz-research website to document all of these kinds of findings. I have tons of ideas, but chronologies such as the ones below are examples of something that can be housed on a website. I will start a separate thread about my ideas in the near future. Chronologies for artist such as Booker Little, Herbie Nichols, Tina Brooks, Larry Young etc. could be established and of course we already have elements for a Grant Green chronology. A mega Blue Note records history could be built from here ad well. I started something for Duke Pearson on Facebook (see below) inspired by a Wes Montgomery page (see below) to which my good friend Steve Herberman contributed greatly. Steve is not only an AMAZING guitarist (master of the 7-string) but also an ace jazz researcher. The idea of the website is motivated by the fact that: 1) Print books are a dying form, regrettably (where is the 1,000-page Blue Note book?) 2) The internet is a 'living thing' and new data can be added every day. In fact, I conceive this as a collaborative effort, any serious researcher can be part of it. I can't do this alone. Art Blakey Chronology (and the Jazz Messengers) (jazzmf.com) https://www.press.umich.edu/132323/delightfulee/?s=supplemental_materials (5) Duke Pearson Research | Facebook (5) Wes Montgomery Research | Facebook Young was back from Paris by 3/31/65 for the Hold Your Hand record. BTW, a recording was made at the Chat Qui Peche with Young, Shaw etc. Does it still exist and who would have it? More on that later... Man, this thread is exploding! On the topic of Wilbur Harden...The notes to the 2-CD set by Keepnews say he was trying to come back to Savoy later (1966) and even sent sheet music in which, at the time Keepnews wrote the notes, were apparently readily available for research in some sort of Savoy archive. Savoy in under Concord now, right? 'nuff said...

Yes, I always thought it was Jack McDuff LOL. Logically, they would have played the Beatles tune in support of the album, so that suggests Green and Young playing together in the summer of 1965. As I pointed out though, Grant Left Blue Note almost overnight after the Hold Your Hand record (3/31/65) since he made King Funk on 5/26/65. The Blue Note record must have been a 'last fulfillment before the contract ends' kind of deal. Would Verve had wanted him to plug a Blue Note album on gigs? They were probably not paying attention. The issue of the date is not just an academic exercise. If the Iron City tape had just turned up yesterday, which label would need to give clearance? If it was before 3/31/65 (as Travis Klein suggests) then it is Blue Note. After that it is Verve for a while, but that contract ended at some point. Does Grant appear as 'courtesy of' on any sideman date between his two Blue Note leader stints? If it is really 1967 as Cobblestone claimed, then no clearance was needed. But maybe they just claimed that date to bypass Blue Note or Verve... The issue of contracts fascinates me. If a recording turns up, how does one know if there was an enforceable contract in action on the day of the recording. This Grant situation would really be a test. Let's say a recording turns up of Grant that can be 100% guaranteed to have been made on 4/15/65. Who needs to give clearance? Blue Note or Verve? What if it is released anyway and one of the labels takes action. They would need to produce an authentic contract with Grant's signature. Does Blue Note have an archive of all the contracts from back in those days? I doubt Verve does - they apparently can't even find the tapes from the later Green sessions. Another example: I was given a lo-fi Lee Morgan recording from November 1971 and asked if a label could be interested. I assumed Blue Note but then realized that his last leader/sideman date for Blue Note was before that, so it was THEORETICALLY possible that his contract had ended and not been renewed, which I knew was highly unlikely. Then I saw that Lee is listed as 'courtesy of Blue Note' on the Charles Earland record so that was proof enough for me and I made Blue Note aware of it thought Zev Feldman, who is apparently now their go-to guy now - no answer yet, but it is very lo-fi, not holding my breath. If it was a no but another label was interested in putting it out at least as download (which is really the solution here), they would need clearance from Blue Note. If they bypass Blue Note, then they could get sued. But does Blue Note have a contract to produce? Is the note on the Earland record enough proof? There is one other clue that I am not sure I am allowed to disclose yet, but it is weaker than the Earland angle. Going back to Grant - if Uptown had put out the 7/31/66 Left Bank date, would they have needed clearance from a label? My hunch is no, we have no reason to believe Grant was under contract with anyone. It seems it was really more Patton's gig in support of Got A Good Thing Goin', but I guess they wanted Grant because he was more of a name. Uptown would not have cared anyway - he put out the Duke Pearson big band date from 4/27/69, and Duke was still doing leader dates for Blue Note after that, although not the big band, but I am sure it was one contract covering any configurations.

I think you found the Iron City gig, but it is Ben Dixon on drums. Or is that up in the air also?

Interesting that the photo with Larry might be 6/17/66. Remember that Grant was at Left Bank on 7/31/66 with Vick, Patton and Hugh Walker. This would mean he really did go back and forth. It was recorded, Uptown bought the tape and it is sitting in some storage unit in Montreal. I tried talking him into putting it out several times, but he didn't and now who knows what will happen...

Great job Niko and Roberto!!! 1) Ed Cherry is now on the fence. Bill Heid brought it up two years ago when I last saw him and was adamant it could NOT be Larry. I will follow up. 2) 1/18/65 has no personnel listed. But it can't be Larry, he was in Paris. 3) Totally possible that Travis got the January and November gigs confused. November is a possible candidate, with Larry subbing for John at the last minute. It is the only one with Dixon. Only hitch: the Verve session is before so that makes the song title issue problematic. 4) The later dates are more doubtful - Larry was in another bag by then. The Cobblestone did claim 1967, but that might have been made up to avoid negotiating with a label. In 1967, Grant had no label, but in 1965 it was Blue Note then Verve. Odd that he switched labels so fast. Datewise, it seems to be Patton. But Patton and Dixon say it is Young. And more people think Larry than John. Anyone want to give some specific examples? For me, the Love Supreme vamp points to Larry, although Grant starts it! Early 1965 is doubtful because of the vamp. More work is needed. Would be nice to get the scoop on the photo. I plan to get a newspapers.com account, long overdue. Niko, do you have the $8/month or $20/month option? Sounds like the upgrade gives you a lot more. How long did that search take? Do you have to go Newspaper by newspaper, there is no central search engine? During the 7 day free trial, I plan to test these four obscure heroes of mine: Booker Little, Herbie Nichols, Tina Brooks and Larry Young.

Wow! So it was at this very gig that the seed of the idea to record the Beatles' tune was planted in Grant's head. Amazing! Do you remember who else was in the band? And, the big question: any chance anyone was recording? So we know Grant was at the club several times. It still needs to be determined if Larry Young was ever on any of the gigs. It is the only way he could have been on Iron City.

Would they really have been playing the Love Supreme vamp on 1/18/65? The Coltrane was record was 5 weeks old...

Time to dig this up again. I am in touch with British researcher David Grundy who is writing an article on Larry Young for the publication Point of Departure. He was not aware of the Iron City debate, so I hipped him. This made me want to go back and dig some more. I found Travis Klein on Facebook, the person who arranged the record date while Grant was playing at the Hurricane Lounge. He regularly posts historical music facts about Pittsburgh and said this: On this date in Pittsburgh music history, January 18, 1965, Grant Green with his trio, Ben Dixon on drums and the monster "Big" John Patton on Hammond B-3 organ, appeared at the Hurricane Lounge in the 1500 block of Center Avenue on the Hill. One of the biggest thrills in my life happened that day. Billy Driscoll, who was managing Gene Ludwig at the time, came up to our store at 1811 Center and told me that Grant needed money to cop drugs and he would be willing to trade a recording session for the money. I immediately called down to Gateway Studios, owned by the the Shapiro's of National Record Mart and located above their main location at 234 Forbes Avenue to arrange for the recording session. The songs on the album are "Samba de Orpheus", "Old Man Moses" (Let My People Go), "High Heeled Sneakers", "Motherless Child", "Work Song" and an untitled number that I named "Iron City" and became the name of the album. So great, we have a date. All good, right? Think again. Larry was in Paris on that date! So where do we stand? 1) Patton said it was not him but Larry, and Ben Dixon thought so as well. 2) Many people hear Larry, but experts like Bill Heid and Ed Cherry say it is Patton. 3) Is this date correct? Grant may have played several times at this joint, in fact I found another post where DMP suggests he saw Grant there in 1967 with Patton. How can this be settled? Can we find reviews or gig listings in Newspapers? If there is at least one example of Larry playing at the Lounge with Grant, then it is still possible. Travis could be thinking of two different appearances, perhaps? What is odd is that Travis showed up for part of the session, yet cannot say who was at the session on organ. Very odd... One thing for sure: Larry could not have been in Pittsburgh on 1/18/65.

You saw Grant Green at the Hurricane in 1967 or 1965 or both?

Sound is fine. Odean sounds a bit harsh, but he was young and still working on his sound. The comparison to Andrew!!! is very apt. So other than Elmo Hope, who was he listening to? I would say Hill definitely. I would speculate Herbie Nichols, but how would he have gotten the records, unless Max hooked him up...

I usually don't do this, but I preordered the Redman from Dusty Groove because it's Dewey and probably the only time it will ever be on CD (I assume these are real CDs). Shipping seems to be $3 for a preorder, is that correct?

How much is shipping from this site?

Thanks!

Try contacting Cheryl Pawelski through Facebook maybe?

Bumping this up - does anyone have a copy of the article by Guy Sterling in the Newark Star Ledger - it is not online. Thanks!