I am curious about how people here respond to certain questions about Jazz, especially but not only, as we get older

[AllenLowe]

I spent a lot of my “youth” disagreeing with Wynton and with Stanley Crouch about the primacy of the blues in jazz; it seemed almost like  an authoritarian dictate, that the music had to sound one way or another. And the more research I did into American music the more the blues seemed to be more effect then cause, meaning it was less a cause of black music and jazz etc then the end result of certain black musical practices, which did indeed have a powerful impact historically and continuously on just about every jazz musician, black and white. To support my beliefs I thought of players like Earl Hines, who was not, formally, a great blues player but whose phrasing was clearly from an African-American musical tradition. My ultimate rationale was that Hines reflected practices which were much older than the blues but were clearly black (and I would suggest that to understand them we need to look at the African American sanctified church, which was going through radical changes at the beginning of the 20th century). 

So, not to get too heavily into that argument, I was initially, in my disagreement,  inspired by people like Paul Bley, a great improviser whose whole method of phraseology and tonality were clearly “Jazz” but not in the least, I thought, “blue”.

And then some time passed, I got older and started playing a lot more, and became impatient with styles of performance that seemed to me bland and somewhat colorless - until it became clear to me that what I missed in such things was a certain kind of rhythm and cadence which was not only very much rooted in African-American style but also frequently had a Blues - or was it black?- origin to it. Was I just getting older and more conservative? 

I also should note that there were/are clearly such musical distinctions between the 60s Avent garde and today’s crop. I think of Ornette of course and also Albert Ayler, Roswell Rudd, the whole ESP crew like Noah Howard, or Marion Brown and Archie Shepp. There is/was clearly to my ears a “blackness” to Shepp’s  playing, for one example, missing in much of today’s free jazz sonic world. And I don’t like it I have to admit, I have trouble listening to it for any length of time. Bley was different, possibly because his playing was so rooted in traditional triadic harmony, but even some of his later work set my mind to wandering. I want to hear that post African-American phraseology, the spacial relationship of what many people call, ideologically, blue or blues connotation. So I play that way myself, and tend to be a bit bored with players who  don’t, and I tend to hire players who have that same feeling and orientation.
 

And then I continuously worry that I am far out of touch, just another old guy slinking into the sunset. And so I was wondering about other people here, and how they react to these sounds and trends and what I consider to be a radical dichotomy in Jazz and the typical improviser’s musicianship. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by AllenLowe

[mikeweil]

1 hour ago, AllenLowe said:

I want to hear that post African-American phraseology, the spacial relationship of what many people call, ideologically, blue or blues connotation. So I play that way myself, and tend to be a bit bored with players who  don’t, and I tend to hire players who have that same feeling. 

My preference, too.

I really can relate to what you are saying.

[Rabshakeh]

I can relate to this a lot. 

It isn't just a jazz thing. The "blues feeling" - that pulse and phrasing, or the presence of "soul" - is one of the key things I hope for in music. 

That cuts right across a lot of the music that I do listen to most, but not necessarily by genre.

Within jazz, I generally miss it the most. In the Avant Garde world, I sometimes think of music that lacks this feel as being in the lineage of Jimmy Giuffre, thinking in particular of the Stuttgart and Bremen live records on Hat - the sort of exploratory but rather colourless music can be found any given Tuesday evening at Cafe OTO or other similar dedicated avant garde spaces.  But my worst is the moody, rhythm-free, academically-minded pianists and/or educators in mainstream jazz (e.g. Mehldau and latter day Iyer in particular).

Outside of jazz, I find that a lot of modern instrumental hip hop lacks soul. There are plenty of po-faced beat tapes, which have rhythms that are every bit as metronomic as the worst of non-African American music. An even worse offender is home-listening electronica music, nearly rhythm free, and designed for intense, and intensely tedious (it seems to me), headphone listening. 

Increasingly, I feel a little isolated in my dislike of this kind of music. Clearly, a lot of people who really love music actually do want this sort of serious-mindedness, and see precisely the studious quality that repels me as being appealing. 

Where I disagree though is with the idea that the "blues feeling" is determinative.

There are other keys: lyrics (Hank Williams), purity of melody line (Lee Konitz), close harmonies (the Mighty Diamonds) or raw, dumb, sweaty, excitement (Minor Threat or the Stanley Brothers).  There are lots of ways to make satisfying music, and a lack of blues feeling, rhythm and phraseology needn't prevent the music from being thrilling. That goes for jazz as much as any kind of music.

[John L]

My evolution as a listener is somewhat the opposite, although I may have converged in the end to a similar place.  I came to jazz as a huge blues lover, and appreciated jazz at first only as a realm of blues music.  So I had little use for jazz that was distant from blues sensibilities.  Over time, my tastes have broadened to appreciate a lot of jazz that explores directions that are quite divorced from the blues.   Nevertheless, 'blues music" in the broad sense remains the music that I feel closest too, have the greatest attachment to.   

[AllenLowe]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

I can relate to this a lot. 

It isn't just a jazz thing. The "blues feeling" - that pulse and phrasing, or the presence of "soul" - is one of the key things I hope for in music. 

That cuts right across a lot of the music that I do listen to most, but not necessarily by genre.

Within jazz, I generally miss it the most. In the Avant Garde world, I sometimes think of music that lacks this feel as being in the lineage of Jimmy Giuffre, thinking in particular of the Stuttgart and Bremen live records on Hat - the sort of exploratory but rather colourless music can be found any given Tuesday evening at Cafe OTO or other similar dedicated avant garde spaces.  But my worst is the moody, rhythm-free, academically-minded pianists and/or educators in mainstream jazz (e.g. Mehldau and latter day Iyer in particular).

Outside of jazz, I find that a lot of modern instrumental hip hop lacks soul. There are plenty of po-faced beat tapes, which have rhythms that are every bit as metronomic as the worst of non-African American music. An even worse offender is home-listening electronica music, nearly rhythm free, and designed for intense, and intensely tedious (it seems to me), headphone listening. 

Increasingly, I feel a little isolated in my dislike of this kind of music. Clearly, a lot of people who really love music actually do want this sort of serious-mindedness, and see precisely the studious quality that repels me as being appealing. 

Where I disagree though is with the idea that the "blues feeling" is determinative.

There are other keys: lyrics (Hank Williams), purity of melody line (Lee Konitz), close harmonies (the Mighty Diamonds) or raw, dumb, sweaty, excitement (Minor Threat or the Stanley Brothers).  There are lots of ways to make satisfying music, and a lack of blues feeling, rhythm and phraseology needn't prevent the music from being thrilling. That goes for jazz as much as any kind of music.

this is very good and illuminating - though I will say that a lot of the word play you find in Hank Williams is probably related to black language; and I guess I should reiterate that it is not the blues per se that populates the music I tend to prefer, but a certain basis in black speech and rhythm, really (probably) a pre-blues sense of African American world play. I was helped to come to this conclusion by reading through certain collections of black lyrics like those of Talley and Newman White, Howard Odum and Dorothy Scarborough - much if not most of which pre-dates the blues but which had a great impact on its (the blues') sources. Also, early country music (pre-1935) is filled with an amazing mix of blues, proto-blues and minstrel songs with deep roots in black musical sources.

Edited July 11, 2023 by AllenLowe

[Teasing the Korean]

I never developed an interest in the blues, largely because of so many bad white blues bands who played paint-by-numbers 12-bar blues patterns over and over and over again.  So it is a road I never went down.

The blues influence in jazz is so pervasive that I wonder how many players and listeners are conscious of it.  If a jazz player has naturally assimilated a blues influence in their playing, that is one thing.  If they are self-consciously adding a blues feeling or playing blues licks, that is quite another, and I can usually spot this a mile away. 

I am mostly interested in soloists whose phrasing is rhythmically varied.  Whether the soloist gets this from the blues or elsewhere is not important to me.  There are obviously many sources that a soloist can draw from.

[JSngry]

All I want is zone. I don't care how it gets there. Just get there.

Without zone, it's just replaceable labor with a mechanical end. 

[Dub Modal]

This is a random thought but the discussion on pre-blues made me think of how that Mississippi Delta area spent centuries under French and Spanish control prior to the La purchase. Mixed in there would be significant Indigenous influence, African slaves and their descendants along other immigrant populations that fed into music from that region. I’m sure there’s been some serious scholarship on this topic…

but also, what JSngry said 👍 

[AllenLowe]

I wrote a whole book on the blues, inspired by a nasty little argument I had, in person, with Wynton. It's a large and wondrous subject, long on detail, short on insight. I am thinking I will go back and revisit the manuscript now that I can (sorta) see clearly.

[sgcim]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

All I want is zone. I don't care how it gets there. Just get there.

Without zone, it's just replaceable labor with a mechanical end. 

Yea, last night I brought down one of my charts on a standard that not too many people play, and some of the dudes were wondering what it was. All my charts are meant to propel the improviser into the zone, if they have the means to get there, but the notes have to be there, too.

I try to think of writing things that Eddie Costa would play off of; a cat who would go deep into the zone almost always, but the notes would still be there.

The alto player was trying to get there, but he didn't quite make it. Then the trombone player, a Swiss cat, Amadis Dunkel, who almost always gets there, just exploded! The cat was playing things that I couldn't even imagine existed, and the room just shot up so high into the zone, I didn't think it was ever coming back.

But then the trumpet player (who usually doesn't get the solos, but the regular guy wasn't there last night), just took off like a rocket!  On both of those solos i was jumping up and down, yelling out "Yes!" over and over again.

Surprisingly, the tenor player who almost always gets there, just couldn't get there note-wise ( maybe because it wasn't a tune he was familiar with), and was anti-climatic solo-wise.

Still the band played the schist out of it, and I was in seventh heaven.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

All I want is zone. I don't care how it gets there. Just get there.

Without zone, it's just replaceable labor with a mechanical end. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

All I want is zone. I don't care how it gets there. Just get there.

Without zone, it's just replaceable labor with a mechanical end. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The al

to player came as close a

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

All I want is zone. I don't care how it gets there. Just get there.

Without zone, it's just replaceable labor with a mechanical end. 

s I ever heard him

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aggie87]

11 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

Was I just getting older and more conservative? 

As we age, many of us go back to what gives us comfort.  And for many of us who love music, it's often the music of our more formative listening years, whatever style/genre that may be - hard bop, Armstrong, traditional country, classic rock, old school R&B, whatever.  I'm not sure that's quite the same as getting more conservative, ears-wise. Maybe it is.  Or maybe if you started out with a love of diverse sounds and styles, that continued exploration is your comfort zone.  So maybe continuing to do what you did earlier is a form of conservatism, since you're not changing and evolving, despite continuing to listen to new things.  I dunno.

Outside of music, I've noticed many of the people I knew when I was younger have become more and more conservative (politically, culturally) personally as they age.  I have less and less in common with them over time.

 

[jazzbo]

What first turned me on to music in the way it is central to my life now was discovering Jimi Hendrix due to "Hey Joe" and "All Along the Watchtower" hitting the radio, and that sense of joy and exploration in the music Jimi crafted led me to really go deeply into jazz. As I get older I begin to realize that there is something I sense in music that I am attracted to and even obsessed with that has that joy and excitement of exploration as an important component. And I can find it in The Mound City Blue Blowers or the Duke Ellington Orchestra or Archie Shepp's Impulse work or Keith Jarrett's ECM work or many Brazilian artists.  My answers would speak of a tradition of jazz as containing vital elements that can be revisited over and over with joy and an excitement to experiment and improvise.

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Aggie87 said:

As we age, many of us go back to what gives us comfort.  And for many of us who love music, it's often the music of our more formative listening years, whatever style/genre that may be - hard bop, Armstrong, traditional country, classic rock, old school R&B, whatever.  I'm not sure that's quite the same as getting more conservative, ears-wise. Maybe it is.  Or maybe if you started out with a love of diverse sounds and styles, that continued exploration is your comfort zone.  So maybe continuing to do what you did earlier is a form of conservatism, since you're not changing and evolving, despite continuing to listen to new things.  I dunno.

Outside of music, I've noticed many of the people I knew when I was younger have become more and more conservative (politically, culturally) personally as they age.  I have less and less in common with them over time.

 

I think I'm becoming priggishly conservative in my standards, increasingly less tolerance for halfassedness of any sort, but all the while becoming downright slutty in WHAT I will listen to.

Life's too short to listen to slack, but it's also too short to not listen to good stuff regardless of origin. 

Although...I anticipate that there will come a time when life will be too short for "listening" at all. It will all be one state of consciousness and it will have neither beginning nor end. "Music" will be something for and from the previously inhabited finite space and time, and "jazz" will be some sliver of some sliver of some sliver. 

But until then... 

[Teasing the Korean]

3 hours ago, Aggie87 said:

As we age, many of us go back to what gives us comfort. 

I guess this gets into the question of whether we listen to music for nostalgia rather than for its intrinsic value.  I listen to hardly any of the rock/pop music of my youth, because I am not interested in reliving that experience.  The Beach Boys are the one exception, but I appreciate this music intrinsically.

Other musical things from my formative years that I still listen to include a few of my parents' albums, which stylistically I would like anyway, so the nostalgia factor is limited.

[rostasi]

For me, a slight bit of nostalgia comes after something has begun playing that comes out of my past, rather than feeling nostalgia first…and then playing something in order to appease a desire.

Also, what’s up with the long bit of nothing in the middle of this page?

Edited July 12, 2023 by rostasi

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, rostasi said:

Also, what’s up with the long bit of nothing in the middle of this page?

Message board haiku.

[JSngry]

One post got totally hinky for some reason. I can't clean it up on my phone and am too lazy to get over to the PC.

Tomorrow, maybe  

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I like the blues feel, the mainstream black music phrasing and feel, and I also tend to prefer some swing in the music.  Some years back I got infected with the Basie bug and have never quite gotten over it.  I get bored when a tune is not rhythmically compelling and though my jazz journey started out with bop and post bop, I find myself listening to a lot of swing now.

[Dan Gould]

9 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

I like the blues feel, the mainstream black music phrasing and feel, and I also tend to prefer some swing in the music.  Some years back I got infected with the Basie bug and have never quite gotten over it.  I get bored when a tune is not rhythmically compelling and though my jazz journey started out with bop and post bop, I find myself listening to a lot of swing now.

This is quite similar to my own attitude (though I would not have voiced the rhythmically compelling part) and I am also finding more swing/mainstream players and far less "post bop," that is for sure.

[danasgoodstuff]

I think my interest in avant gardians probably peaked some time ago, but I still like most of what I liked back then - Ayler, Shepp, etc.  but to me they are grounded in blues and other vernacular music feeling.  But to me so is Jimmy Giuffre, his The Train & the River is both down to earth and down home.   It breathes, which is a term I prefer to swing since that has specific style and period connotations I don't particularly need or care about.  And while most of the music I like is from or overtly influenced by specifically African American traditions, it doesn't have to be and some that are fail to do anything for me.  And there are a lot of different shades of blues and many are to my liking but some are not, including most blues product of recent decades and much overtly bluesy jazz and rock.  Such broad categorizations don't capture what I like very well.  

[Gheorghe]

On 7/13/2023 at 12:42 AM, danasgoodstuff said:

I think my interest in avant gardians probably peaked some time ago, but I still like most of what I liked back then - Ayler, Shepp, etc.  but to me they are grounded in blues and other vernacular music feeling.  But to me so is Jimmy Giuffre, his The Train & the River is both down to earth and down home.   It breathes, which is a term I prefer to swing since that has specific style and period connotations I don't particularly need or care about.  And while most of the music I like is from or overtly influenced by specifically African American traditions, it doesn't have to be and some that are fail to do anything for me.  And there are a lot of different shades of blues and many are to my liking but some are not, including most blues product of recent decades and much overtly bluesy jazz and rock.  Such broad categorizations don't capture what I like very well.  

I am from the generation where jazz rock just started and still there was that air of NY avantgarde. Trane was just dead for 4 years but there was Pharoah Sanders, there were Ornette Colman, Don Cherry, Cecil Taylor , Sun Ra and all of them whom I loved. 
Some of the Free Jazz got smoothed a little like "Karma" "Live at the East" and there was a lot of hippie style audience, who loved this and loved early 70´s Miles. 

I got acquainted to Jimmy Giuffree only as late as 3 years ago when my wife picked a fine live album from Graz (I think a Hat Hut release) and it was a birthday present. She just had seen "live" on the cover and bought it. 

I must admit, that it´s a very very fine album. Maybe I must be in a certain mood and have time, mostly on long winter evenings, than I love to listen to it very attent on what happens.  I would not buy much more from that stuff, but it has a good place in my collection.