Jazz Times -- no white writers admitted now? per Nate Chinen

[Chuck Nessa]

I can't imagine growth without insights from others.

[Teasing the Korean]

28 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

I can't imagine growth without insights from others.

Either can I.  In the internet era, there are lots of sources for insights beyond critics.  And they are not beholden to sell subscriptions the way that critics are.  Or were. 

[Ken Dryden]

5 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

With all respect to Larry Kart and other reviewers, I have questioned the value of record reviews in the digital era, when any of us can listen to samples, YouTube videos, or even entire albums via Spotify.  Reviews were more valuable when you had to drop money before checking out the record.

A review might prompt you to check out an unfamiliar artist or possibly re-evaluate one that you dismissed in the past. There simply isn’t enough time in the day to sample ever new release, let alone hear it all the way through.

[Teasing the Korean]

2 minutes ago, Ken Dryden said:

A review might prompt you to check out an unfamiliar artist or possibly re-evaluate one that you dismissed in the past. There simply isn’t enough time in the day to sample ever new release, let alone hear it all the way through.

I completely agree, but in the internet era, other forms of communication can accomplish the same thing.  I'm not knocking critics; but categorically, critics are not the monolithic source that they once were for these kinds of evaluations or insights.  

[JSngry]

6 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

...in the internet era, other forms of communication can accomplish the same thing.  I'm not knocking critics.. 

And now there's the Algorithm Era!!!

https://www.vulture.com/2023/04/spotify-discover-weekly-songs-essay.html#_ga=2.191221098.1546804939.1681851317-570768843.1681851316

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

And now there's the Algorithm Era!!!

https://www.vulture.com/2023/04/spotify-discover-weekly-songs-essay.html#_ga=2.191221098.1546804939.1681851317-570768843.1681851316

And soon, AI will generate the types of music we are in the mood to hear!

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

And soon, AI will generate the types of music we are in the mood to hear!

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-14/chatgpt-ai-is-knock-knock-knockin-on-spotify-s-door#xj4y7vzkg

[rostasi]

 

[danasgoodstuff]

4 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

I can't imagine growth without insights from others.

This.  Unfortunately, many don't even want growth or have any concept of others. It's pathological.

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-14/chatgpt-ai-is-knock-knock-knockin-on-spotify-s-door#xj4y7vzkg

I heard some things the other day that sounded like AI "jazz". Really short things that sounded like disjointed soft jazz. 

[mjzee]

4 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I'm not knocking critics; but categorically, critics are not the monolithic source that they once were for these kinds of evaluations or insights.

The good thing about the old system (regularly-appearing critics writing in regularly-appearing publications) is when you find particular writers you like, whether because your tastes or outlooks are similar or you simply like their writing style.  A level of trust then develops, and you're more inclined to take their opinion about a new release more seriously.  I don't know what the new system is, or even if there is a new system.  I know there are a lot more paid advertorials and influencers, but I don't think that's a good thing, at least for me (it's great for them).

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, rostasi said:

 

BTW, while I was the bearer of this Jazz Times news, via an email from Nate Chinen, I don't give  a crap about Jazz Times, never have and probably never will. Only jazz mags I ever cared about were the Jazz Review and Jazz Monthly. I worked at/wrote for Down Beat for several years, but the only wholly positive aspect of that experience I can recall was becoming friends with Dan Morgenstern, Don DeMicheal, Martin Williams, and Ira Gitler and getting to review several Roscoe Mitchell albums.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Teasing the Korean]

51 minutes ago, mjzee said:

 I don't know what the new system is, or even if there is a new system. 

For me, it's a combination of message boards, FB groups, recommendations from friends, YouTube, Websites like Dusty Groove, and labels with particular aesthetics.  Even some Amazon reviews are very thoughtful and detailed. 

[T.D.]

17 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

For me, it's a combination of message boards, FB groups, recommendations from friends, YouTube, Websites like Dusty Groove, and labels with particular aesthetics.  Even some Amazon reviews are very thoughtful and detailed. 

Very much the same for me. I've significantly reduced my subjective weighting of Amazon reviews over the years, but still consult them to some extent.

[Rabshakeh]

2 hours ago, T.D. said:

Very much the same for me. I've significantly reduced my subjective weighting of Amazon reviews over the years, but still consult them to some extent.

I used to love the Amazon user edited lists. Long gone but very formative for me.

[Teasing the Korean]

10 hours ago, T.D. said:

Very much the same for me. I've significantly reduced my subjective weighting of Amazon reviews over the years, but still consult them to some extent.

I suppose some of this also comes down to our personal networks.  I am lucky in that my brother, wife, and brother-in-law are all vinyl junkies and all share diverse taste in music.  I have plenty of opportunities to hear new things and get recommendations.  And beyond them, many of our friends share our music obsession.

[Brad]

The amount of teeth gnashing going on about Nate Chinen’s post is beyond comical. 

[Rooster_Ties]

20 minutes ago, Brad said:

The amount of teeth gnashing going on about Nate Chinen’s post is beyond comical. 

And, unfortunately, not unexpected.

(You may notice my sole post here so far has been to add a “+1” of agreement to a quoted moderate “middle-ground” comment made by someone else too — NOT that that makes me any ‘better’ — but I say that only to that I’ve been resisting with all my might to gnash any of my teeth about this.)

One thing I have wanted to say is that I wish Chinen had stated a goal more like wanting to hire one Black writer for every non-black writer, in an effort to achieve something closer to a 50/50 mix of contributors — or something along those lines.

That would have been a laudable and measured goal — that wasn’t more easily taken as an ‘absolutist’ stance by others (and wouldn’t have been ‘exclusionary’).

Or there may have been other similar approaches that aimed to achieve the same sort of goal… of better racial representation within their staff.

Full disclosure: I’ve practically never read Jazz Times (or any jazz magazine other than Downbeat). And to be honest, I’ve never even been a subscriber to Downbeat even — though I used to buy individual issues on the newsstand between 1995-2010 (maybe 3 issues a year).

(Which is to say I’m not particularly infested in what Jazz Times does, or doesn’t do — since it affects me not one bit.)

Edited April 19, 2023 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Infested, eh? Better call Orkin!!! 

[Dan Gould]

39 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

 

One thing I have wanted to say is that I wish Chinen had stated a goal more like wanting to hire one Black writer for every non-black writer, in an effort to achieve something closer to a 50/50 mix of contributors — or something along those lines.

That would have been a laudable and measured goal — that wasn’t more easily taken as an ‘absolutist’ stance by others (and wouldn’t have been ‘exclusionary’).

Or there may have been other similar approaches that aimed to achieve the same sort of goal… of better racial representation within their staff.

 

Chinen is among the ones now on the outs due to their race. It's the new owner of the magazine with race on his mind and he seems to be exclusionary (and blame-casting) about it. 

Quotas are not on his mind.

 

 

[JSngry]

Chinen clearly states that he has not been affiliated with JY for years.

And nowhere does JT say that there will be no more white contributors. In fact, given their oopen solicitation of management submissions. I suspect there will end up being quite a few. 

Chinen was just rabblerousing, " just asking a question". Thanks, Leonard! 

[clifford_thornton]

18 hours ago, JSngry said:

And now there's the Algorithm Era!!!

https://www.vulture.com/2023/04/spotify-discover-weekly-songs-essay.html#_ga=2.191221098.1546804939.1681851317-570768843.1681851316

yeah, I mean, that's the thing -- we all act like the internet is going to exist "forever" in the way that it currently does. Doubtful. Websites go belly up or are suppressed in favor of those that garner more ad traffic. If you want to keep something for reference decades on, you'd better have a physical copy. And yes, I am an archivist by profession.

[Face of the Bass]

Guys, relax. Jazz is finished as an art form. It's been comatose for decades. Nobody should care about the race of the people who get to be the "gatekeepers" to an abandoned neighborhood. 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

8 minutes ago, Face of the Bass said:

Guys, relax. Jazz is finished as an art form. It's been comatose for decades. Nobody should care about the race of the people who get to be the "gatekeepers" to an abandoned neighborhood. 

I don't want to believe that and there are lots of people still making good jazz music at present but it is difficult to deny that the glory days of jazz as a popular music and as a dance music appear to be over.  Nevertheless it may be mostly gone but not forgotten: pop, rock, and blues music continue to revive elements of jazz.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Brad]

5 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

Guys, relax. Jazz is finished as an art form. It's been comatose for decades. Nobody should care about the race of the people who get to be the "gatekeepers" to an abandoned neighborhood. 

Cue TTK.